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 Post subject: Re: Useful books to become stronger
Post #81 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:24 am 
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If you have it, or can borrow it, it probably would not hurt to read it quickly. Don't study it, though.

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Post #82 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:23 am 
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cttsui wrote:
Book reviews of 38 Joseki from Kisedo says that the josekis are sometimes outdated. Is it still useful if I study the book now?


38 Basic Joseki offers a representative selection useful if you invest 4 hours per joseki. It is a possible start for joseki learning, but nowadays there are also softer starts, i.e., such helping their readers more. So tell me how you want to start learning joseki and I tell you whether 38 is your best choice.

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Post #83 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:43 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
cttsui wrote:
Book reviews of 38 Joseki from Kisedo says that the josekis are sometimes outdated. Is it still useful if I study the book now?


38 Basic Joseki offers a representative selection useful if you invest 4 hours per joseki. It is a possible start for joseki learning, but nowadays there are also softer starts, i.e., such helping their readers more. So tell me how you want to start learning joseki and I tell you whether 38 is your best choice.


I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations. However, I would like to understand each joseki, and be able to use it in the right situation (as well as its variations). Could you suggest a way that I can study joseki properly?

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Post #84 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:53 pm 
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cttsui wrote:
I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations.


If you're new to go, you don't have to sit down and memorize joseki. That is one of the last things you need to worry about. If you want to get stronger, play games, have fun, and post some games for review when you have questions.

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Post #85 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:23 pm 
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oren wrote:
cttsui wrote:
I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations.


If you're new to go, you don't have to sit down and memorize joseki. That is one of the last things you need to worry about. If you want to get stronger, play games, have fun, and post some games for review when you have questions.


I'm currently 13k on IGS. Would it be beneficial for me to start studying joseki?

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Post #86 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:55 pm 
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cttsui wrote:
I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations. However, I would like to understand each joseki, and be able to use it in the right situation (as well as its variations). Could you suggest a way that I can study joseki properly?


Being new to Go, you should study only a few basic josekis. Wishing to understand each joseki and use it is the right positional context is a very nice objective but is more than you can achieve already at your level. All its variations is too much; you can be happy already if you know a few major variations.

I suggest that you read these books:
- First Fundamentals. It gives a very few joseki hints: those absolutely needed as a beginner. More importantly, it teaches good shape moves and other principles useful also for josekis and for every more important topic for a beginner.
- Joseki 1 Fundamentals. It teaches available move types and reasons for playing first corner stones, enclosures, approach moves, pincers and extensions. This is the most basic knowledge for an understanding of josekis and their decision making in the positional context.
- If you will already have read these books and feel you need more, the next useful advice for understanding of the positional context is chapter 2 of Joseki 3 Dictionary. The rest of the book is too advanced for you (too many, too difficult variations in the dictionary chapter), but you might at least have a first look on the various existing strategic choices. (Other related books are also too advanced for you.)
- Not for joseki but useful for your level: Graded Go Problems 1 + 2.

There are other, alternative ways of studying josekis but they do not as easily provide understanding and positional context at your level. E.g., review your own games and try to find out everything by yourself. E.g. try the same by reading 38 Basic Joseki. E.g., read other books, which teach only partial understanding (e.g., Whole Board Thinking in Joseki is selective, is not clear about general principles, neglects the middle game positional context and is too difficult for your level; the joseki chapter of Fundamental Principles of Go teaches only a small selection of principles found in Joseki 1 Fundamentals; Opening Theory Made Easy is more about the opening and - in comparison to First Fundamentals' opening-like principles - too advanced for your level).

Whichever books you study, do not forget to play enough games and apply your new knowledge!:)

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Post #87 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:36 am 
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cttsui wrote:
I'm currently 13k on IGS. Would it be beneficial for me to start studying joseki?


I don't think so. You'll get more benefit from playing or tsumego over joseki studying. One useful site you can find is http://www.dailyjoseki.com for looking at corner sequences after a game. It gives a range of moves pros play and can be interesting.

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Post #88 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:00 am 
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oren wrote:
You'll get more benefit from playing or tsumego over joseki studying.


There is no such conflict of benefit. Both studying reading and the basics of joseki (such as recognising valuable shape points) are important already for DDKs.

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Post #89 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:51 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:

There is no such conflict of benefit. Both studying reading and the basics of joseki (such as recognising valuable shape points) are important already for DDKs.


I'm just pointing out I think studying joseki is less efficient. I understand you want to sell books, but I just disagree on when people need to study joseki.

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Post #90 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:07 pm 
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oren wrote:
studying joseki is less efficient.


Studying joseki basics is MORE efficient because some of the basics a beginners needs to know for josekis are much easier than reading and are similarly useful. In particular, knowing the available good moves types is very efficient. Playing versus not playing a valuable shape point is typically worth about 20 points. Reading correctly can (but need not) be similarly valuable, but the effort to achieve it is much greater. Valuable shape points can be detected visually. Reading requires real effort. So for the sake of improving quickly, learning good move types is much more efficient: with much less effort, improvement is possible.

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I just disagree on when people need to study joseki.


Just to be sure: for beginners, with "studying joseki" I do not mean "learning many variations by heart". A beginner must, however, know those few basic josekis (among them, quite a few 6 or 8 move josekis and the standard 4-4 joseki) occurring frequently.

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Post #91 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:03 pm 
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oren wrote:
I'm just pointing out I think studying joseki is less efficient. I understand you want to sell books, but I just disagree on when people need to study joseki.


I don't have any books to sell, and I still agree with (what I think) Robert is saying. When I was a DDK, familiarizing myself with a number of josekis and joseki ideas ("principles") gave me something in addition to reading practice that tsumego didn't offer me: a feeling of having an inkling of an idea what to do after the immediate opening. This made me feel more confident, and it dispelled a bit of the fog of feeling completely lost.

I'm not suggesting a DDK should actually memorize more than the basic sequence, and no josekis more complex than 15 or so moves. Maybe a couple of variations for the extremely common and simple ones, all in an attempt to understand why it's not a bad idea to play that way. Unlike many people, I'm not opposed to the concept of memorizing things without initially fully understanding them. I believe that understanding can follow memorization, though the risk is that the "reasons" we make up for why something is played are incorrect. That's why having a book explaining these principles can be valuable.

At the end, though, what matters is (and I sound like a broken record) the fun element. Cttsui seems interested in and curious about josekis, so studying josekis is a good idea. There's little harm in it and curiosity and interest accelerate learning. It is more or less efficient than other approaches? I don't know. It depends on the individual and how they learn best.

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Post #92 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Greetings,
learning a few basic joseki is essential for a beginner. If not, then there will be repeated frustration from not knowing how one should deal with basic attacks on your corner stones and as a result, constant and unnecessray losses. It simply makes the game easier and more fun. Nor doe sit require a great deal of energy. Furthermore, one can , as noted above learn a great deal about shapes and tesuji from this process.
The 38 book is actually quite simple to get all that you need at this stage but there is no need to fele guilty about not memorising all the variations. Just get the basic shapes internalized. When you finsih a game, review it and check the corner plays against the basic patterns in the book.
In the same way, it is well worth buying both copies of Dictionary of 21st Joseki. A little expensive perhaps but I do find them easier to use than the Ishida masterwork that proceeded the. The same thing about all the complex variations applies. Just don`t bother at this stage.See what crops up in a game. Study it a little. Make an sgf file of it and post it to yourslef on ipad using smartgo so that you can play ity through a few times everyday. This builds up a decnet repertoire quite naturally and without pain.
As you get better start adding a variation or two to apattern you like. Pick out joseki from pro games and look them up in the books for interestign comments etc.
Best wishes,
Buri

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Post #93 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:31 am 
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Until SDK I've seen only a couple of players even playing the first two moves in a Joseki correct (both sides). In SDK people often play Josekis in the right order but chose the wrong Joseki in the first place. Around low Dan players tend to have a knack of the direction but only play the same five to ten Josekis over and over.

Really no point in bothering in my opinion. It's more important to understand the opening, which side is big/interesting, which corner isn't (e.g. pincering or defending from an approach) etc.

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Post #94 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Thank you for this post. Am a beginner and slowly trying to study the game, so it's incredibly helpful !

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Post #95 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:41 pm 
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A very useful post ! I have been following the reading list from here for my go study.

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Post #96 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:11 pm 
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I haven't read many go books. But on the subject of joseki and understanding basic opening ideas in relation to josekis I read one book which really had a huge impact on me. It's often over-looked because of it's ugly front cover and lack of in-depth diagrams but I think it's a great book for clarifying strategic concepts. The book is Yilun Yang's "Whole-board thinking in Joseki" (I think that's the exact title, borrowed it from a friend so I don't have it in front of me). The book comes in two volumes and basically just shows common opening situations and asks whcih joseki move would be a good choice. Then follows a few lines of play and a conclusion. Very simple but very effective. I read it when I was already a 3d player but I remember thinking that: "Boy, I wish I had read this a lot sooner!".

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Post #97 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:13 am 
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Thank you so much for this topic! I really have enjoyed everyone's responses! I have been looking for many Go books on the internet and I came right to this website to find out about all the ones I've been looking to purchase. :mrgreen:


I can't wait to begin my studies.

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Post #98 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:24 am 
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Since I opened the topic: My personal opinion on which books are best for which level can be found here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SoDesuNe It is also much more up to date than the first post or my other post in this topic.

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Post #99 Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:13 pm 
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cttsui (13 kyu): I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis....

oren: If you're new to go, you don't have to sit down and memorize joseki. That is one of the last things you need to worry about.

buri: learning a few basic joseki is essential for a beginner. If not, then there will be repeated frustration from not knowing how one should deal with basic attacks on your corner stones...

buri: It simply makes the game easier and more fun. Nor doe sit require a great deal of energy. Furthermore, one can ... learn a great deal about shapes and tesuji from this process.

buri: The 38 book is actually quite simple to get all that you need at this stage but there is no need to feel guilty about not memorising all the variations. Just get the basic shapes internalized.


----

I've always been curious about the strength levels where the Elementary Go Series started being useful for people, and when they stopped being useful, and it's always been neat to see where opinions lie...

As for
G11 38 Basic Joseki - Elementary Go Series - Book 2

I've seen people recommend the book at 30 kyu for 'exactly' those reasons buri, though Robert has told me that 12 kyu is probably where the book is most useful for everyone in general.

I think G11 and G38 (the green and the yellow ones) are actually pretty useful books for people to browse at the lowest kyus if they like that sorta thing.

----

maybe 18 kyu is where the other books on joseki can be read

the ancient G1 and G3 books Modern Joseki and Fuseki

[though some people dont think they're great at the higher levels, and some think there's still stuff in the books that boggle high up people]

and Robert's Joseki Fundamentals Volume 1 and 2

at 15 Kyu the Yutopians kick in.

----

30 kyu - G11 38 Basic Joseki - Elementary Go Series - Book 2
18 kyu - G1 Modern Joseki and Fuseki, Volume 1
18 kyu - G3 Modern Joseki and Fuseki, Volume 2
18 kyu - Joseki Fundamentals Volume 1 - Robert Jasiek
18 kyu - Joseki Fundamentals Volume 2 - Robert Jasiek
15 kyu - Y22 Essential Joseki - Rui Naiwei
15 kyu - Y30 Star Point Joseki - The Nihon Kiin
15 kyu - Y36 Even Game Joseki - The Nihon Kiin
10 kyu - G21 Dictionary of Basic Joseki, Volume 1 [most think 5 kyu yet Feng Yun says 10 kyu]
10 kyu - G22 Dictionary of Basic Joseki, Volume 2
10 kyu - G23 Dictionary of Basic Joseki, Volume 3
10 kyu - K52 Get Strong at Joseki, Volume 1
10 kyu - Whole Board Thinking in Joseki Volume 1 - Yilun Yang
10 kyu - Whole Board Thinking in Joseki Volume 2 - Yilun Yang
10 kyu - Y29 Tricks in Joseki - Yang Yilun
10 kyu - Joseki Fundamentals Volume 3 - Robert Jasiek
8 kyu - G35 The Great Joseki Debates
5 kyu - Punishing and Correcting Joseki Mistakes - Mingjiu Jiang
5 kyu - G24 Enclosure Josekis
2 kyu - All About Joseki - Mingjiu Jiang and Guo Juan
1-Dan - K63 300 Joseki Problems - Volume Three
3-Dan - Shuko: The Only Move Volume I - The Joseki/Fuseki Collection


I think i just got fascinated with the approchability of certain go books when i wanted to see just what the ballpark was for the Elementary Go Series

30 kyu - G11 38 Basic Joseki - Elementary Go Series - Book 2 (green)
20 kyu - G10 In the Beginning - Elementary Go Series - Book 1 (pink)
20 kyu - G12 Tesuji - Elementary Go Series - Book 3 (blue)
20 kyu - G13 Life and Death - Elementary Go Series - Book 4 (yellow)
19 kyu - G14 Attack and Defense - Elementary Go Series - Book 5 (copper)
15 kyu - G16 Handicap Go - Elementary Go Series - Book 7 (dark green)
10 kyu - G15 The Endgame - Elementary Go Series - Book 6 (brown)

a lot of people felt G11 and G14 were for far stronger players, but i'm starting to think that the Series basically wanted people to read them in order and 20 kyu was the ideal starting point, and if you're not frustrated easily and you're patient, any sorta beginner period...


Anyways, i think buri said it best and just being aware of the shapes and if it somehow makes things easier, all good...

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Post #100 Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Aten, that's a lot of joseki books.

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