Problem with admins (yes this thread again)

tchan001 · **#61**

http://www.gokgs.com/tos.jsp

Quote:

Privacy Policy

KGS does not give email information to any outside company without explicitly getting permission from you. If your email address is non-private, then other people on the server may get your email address and use it, but even in that case KGS itself will not provide the information to outside organizations.

While you are on KGS, there is no guarantee of privacy. All conversations on KGS are logged. Admins may check these logs when there are accusations of improper behavior; in the process of checking these logs, they may see conversations that are unrelated to the accusations, so even when there is no reason to look at your conversations, an admin may read anything you write. As a rule, if something must be kept private, do not say it on KGS.

It would seem that KGS only promises not to give out your email info to outside company without your permission. Otherwise there is no guarantee of privacy.

tchan001 · **#62**

NoSkill wrote:

moyoaji wrote:

Okay, does anyone else find it interesting that the guy who posted this only has one post?

he wants to hide his identity to insult people, Funny considering by his logic the admins should tell me who he is.

You logic is confusing the admins of KGS with the admins of L19.

NoSkill · **#63**

tchan001 wrote:

http://www.gokgs.com/tos.jsp

Quote:

Privacy Policy

KGS does not give email information to any outside company without explicitly getting permission from you. If your email address is non-private, then other people on the server may get your email address and use it, but even in that case KGS itself will not provide the information to outside organizations.

While you are on KGS, there is no guarantee of privacy. All conversations on KGS are logged. Admins may check these logs when there are accusations of improper behavior; in the process of checking these logs, they may see conversations that are unrelated to the accusations, so even when there is no reason to look at your conversations, an admin may read anything you write. As a rule, if something must be kept private, do not say it on KGS.

Good point, but is it okay for Admins to publicly tell people private info, not on paper but to wms and general kgs system

And I know L19 admins do not = kgs admins but he said admins of a site/server had the right to tell people who he was, so if you told me all his L19 accs he should think that is fine by his logic

xed_over · **#64**

NoSkill wrote:

Why use the parent example when I didn't ask for features, but complained about an admin privilege that has been used in questionable situations.

hahaha, haven't you noticed that some other people have hijacked your thread and he's responding to the other subject matter? You really should keep up

BigDoug · **#65**

jts wrote:

Now, if a KGS admin was simply curious and wanted to know someone's IP just because, is that totally okay/totally not okay/a little weird?

It's an interesting question. I'm glad that you asked it.

As a bit of preliminary background, KGS takes the privacy of its players very seriously. I would be astonished if any admin made the following types of information available to the KGS public at large:

- e-mail address
- physical location
- IP address
- names of other accounts
- contents of private chats

Although nothing on KGS is absolutely private, KGS admins need a very good reason to examine a player's private chat. Furthermore, all instances of examinations of private chat are logged. If an admin makes a number of these requests, questions would probably be asked. If there weren't good reasons for making these requests, then I'd expect measures to be taken.

Your question is about looking up IP addresses. I'm not aware of the IP address look-ups being made for reasons of idle curiousity. KGS doesn't permit stalkors to be admins. On a personal basis, I would feel uncomfortable if I see an admin deliberately stalking or otherwise invading a player's privacy. I am aware of more than one admin being removed from the role because of inappropriate conduct.

In short, I'm not aware of any admins who deliberately seek out details of players without good cause. I don't think that admins would feel comfortable working with someone who deliberately takes advantage of their position to invade a person's privacy.

Javaness2 · **#66**

NoSkill wrote:

The problem is the admins stated in public that I had multiple accounts without permission for no reason. I did not care if people knew that, but they should not have said that. I would not give a rank unless I felt like it, as that is within my rights.. No admin really argued that but maybe the fact I was asking for a free game without a rank upset them and that is why they said the multiple ID thing?

As I originally hinted, KTL has certain rules. If you want to teach there you stick by those rules. If you think that those rules are dumb, you use another room. You seem to have indicated that you want to ignore certain rules(?), so that probably means you're going to get told off. How an admin tells you off is, within reason, up to them. While I might have chosen a different approach, what they did do doesn't immediately sound wrong to me. They seem to have taken a tired line of "how many times do I need to tell you" type approach.

stalkor · **#67**

Quote:

Your question is about looking up IP addresses. I'm not aware of the IP address look-ups being made for reasons of idle curiousity. KGS doesn't permit stalkors to be admins. On a personal basis, I would feel uncomfortable if I see an admin deliberately stalking or otherwise invading a player's privacy. I am aware of more than one admin being removed from the role because of inappropriate conduct.

.............
.............. :shock:

tchan001 · **#68**

I find the idea of posting in KTL for a free game from an unranked player annoying.
It's a room for teachers and learners who offer to teach or be taught.
The owner of the room clearly states in the introduction:

Quote:

Welcome to the KTL.

- Players of ALL strengths are welcome.
- Please teach those who are weaker and in return someone stronger will teach you.
- It helps if you post your rank when asking for or offering help.
- It also helps if you load a game or post a game offer in addition to just asking for review or teaching game in chat ("If you load it, they will come")

If I were looking for a teaching game, I'd go there expecting someone clearly stronger to play a game and give me instructions. Imagine my shock if I accepted a "teaching" game from an unranked player who later reveals that he is much weaker than I am.

Or perhaps I thought I was giving a "teaching" game and it turns out that my opponent was sandbagging to insult my "advice" as evidence of my stupidity and lack of understanding of the game.

Would that be the type of atmosphere KTL would like to promote? I doubt it.

If an unranked player asked "free game anyone?", I'd also have a question in my mind whether the player actually knows what the purpose of the room is. Is he a newbie just in the room by chance? Will he run away right after the game ends? Will he escape in the middle of the game?
The uncertainty would make me weary of accepting such a proposal for a free game in this room.

I'd also want to choose the gap between the teacher and the student relationship. I might not want someone too strong to play with as I want to have a better chance of playing well in the game. Or I might think I'm not strong enough to teach someone so closely ranked to myself.

As Mef pointed out, if you have been in the room quite a few times under different aliases, it may not be hard for people to notice or suspect the accounts as being from the same person who refuses to disclose their ranking but still wants a game. And if it keeps happening, perhaps someone there would complain to an admin.

Mef wrote:

Even on a guest account it can be pretty easy to get an idea if a player has been on KGS before. The fact that you found your way to the KGS Teaching Ladder, put up a game offer and had a rank range in the notes means that it's pretty reasonable to infer that you have been on KGS before and probably have a pretty good idea of you rank. Along those lines it makes sense that someone would request you mention your rank (After all it is listed in the room message, and since people rarely seem to read that, it is quite common for users in the KTL to mention those bullet points as a default response).

Now, as far as admins go, one thing you must keep in mind is that admins aren't exactly your regular every day KGS user, these are generally people who have spent way too much time on KGS already, and much of it is spent watching the social interactions taking place. The end result is that there are some who are quite adept at identifying users based on their behavior. One example - there a few perennial troublemakers who will choose gibberish for guest names then proceed to go curse out their opponents in game. Some of the admins can distinguish these people from each other simply based on the type of gibberish used in the guest names. They can also pick the names out of a user list and check in on the game being played to make sure someone isn't getting cursed out.

With that in mind, what will we know about you is: 1)You put up a game in the KTL (This already cuts us down to maybe 400 people if not less), 2) Time of day (This will put us closer to 100 people), 3) Approximate rank range based on game offer (This will probably narrow it down to maybe a dozen people), 4) Who else is logged on (this will probably be 10 of those 12). This is before we get into trying to guess based on behavior, name choice, chat style, etc. Considering all of this, it shouldn't be terribly hard for an experienced KGS user who spends their time people watching on the server to figure out who you are (another anecdote - there are admins who have had personal/playing accounts figured out by users in less than a day). Immediately assuming that they are snooping your personal information might be jumping the gun.

I really don't see how you can infer that just because an admin says "it's better to put your rank, as you should know" or "setup a game and they will come, as you should know with as many accounts as you have", that he had breached your privacy by looking up your IP. You do make an accusation for such abuse, but there is no evidence that it happened and there is a reasonable case for why it does not have to be as you envision it to be.

If say someone was really annoyed by unranked people asking for games at around the same time every day, and they complained to the admin in private, would a statement from the admin in public to remedy the complaint be unwarranted?

wineandgolover · **#69**

stalkor wrote:

Quote:

KGS doesn't permit stalkors to be admins.
.............. :shock:

Sucks to be you, man. Your life's ambition, shattered in one little sentence. Maybe you should start your own server.

moyoaji · **#70**

wineandgolover wrote:

Sucks to be you, man. Your life's ambition, shattered in one little sentence. Maybe you should start your own server.

Guess stalkor's signature is a lie then... :roll:

wineandgolover · **#71**

moyoaji wrote:

wineandgolover wrote:

Sucks to be you, man. Your life's ambition, shattered in one little sentence. Maybe you should start your own server.

Guess stalkor's signature is a lie then... :roll:

I was just running with his joke, and the ridiculous direction of this thread, man. Don't give me your rolling eyes. (And because this is the Internet, I will clarify that I am not offended by your post, nor offering offense in reply)

tchan001 · **#72**

Guess stalkor chose an inappropriate name which is banned by KGS from being admins as explained by BD. Welcome back to the plebeian class. lol

wineandgolover · **#73**

tchan001 wrote:

If say someone was really annoyed by unranked people asking for games at around the same time every day, and they complained to the admin in private, would a statement from the admin in public to remedy the complaint be unwarranted?

Clearly your annoyed user should start a new thread on L19 complaining about KGS and their lax admins. :roll:

NoSkill · **#74**

I wasn't around when the KTL was made, but have played in it for a long time and join it on every account I make. I teach a lot more than I'm taught of course (I can remember each teaching game I've had, because it was always the same people).

I think saying you need to post a rank really doesn't fit the room. That room is about a friendly place for people to enjoy games and learn, by reviews, demos, or teaching games. Even if the person you play does not review, someone else will unless you are a Dan. Maybe it is because I "grew up in the KTL" I see it different than some of you who have been around longer.

When I play on a new account in the KTL I like to not say a rank because it allows for a more interesting game, and I find better opponents. Generally people who challenge an unknown player are those who would improve, and not someone afraid of losing or the unknown. The person who shows courage and risk like that are muh more fun to play against to me. Also I may be wrong, but not every game in the KTL was meant to be strictly learning as in reviewed or being a teaching game. A lot of times just playing people in the KTL in fre games and testing things helped in a way that the tradiont methods would not have, and in no other room can I find these kinds of people to play.

In any case from my experience I think that the soul of the KTL isn't about little things like stating a rank, but sharing of knowledge and having a god time. It's not about improvingn your rank or ranks at all, it's about getting better and just playing better, which depends on the players attitudes and determination.

Also one last thing, if I would have a - account and play free/teaching games it would be fine, but not a new account? Like I said, those who are too scared to play a game because of worries like rank or escaping aren't even playing go, but just to pretend to themselves they are. It's like those who study all kinds of moves or details of a sport, knowing every pros name and the history of the game, but not spending their time actually playing.

Anyway that's my rant, I guess it's just some difference of opinion in the KTLs policy.

Edit:

Sorry for the typos.. iPod is hard to type on for me.

walpurgis · **#75**

But now you're talking about a different matter altogether, NoSkill. There are many people on KTL, and each of them has their own opinion on how the room should be used and how it should feel. The rules/guidelines of the room are there for a reason - to give a framework for its purpose and usage.

I personally get the feeling that your way of hiding your rank probably seems odd to some of the active people over there, so it shouldn't be surprising if they (including admins) take notice of you and mention something about it in a conversation. And as said earlier, it's not too difficult to recognize people based on their behaviour if you're a regular.

That said, I do find it interesting if your ip was looked up specifically for not wanting to showing your rank. Although I find it at least equally interesting that you are so much offended by that.

hyperpape · **#76**

NoSkill wrote:

Also one last thing, if I would have a - account and play free/teaching games it would be fine, but not a new account? Like I said, those who are too scared to play a game because of worries like rank or escaping aren't even playing go, but just to pretend to themselves they are. It's like those who study all kinds of moves or details of a sport, knowing every pros name and the history of the game, but not spending their time actually playing.

Say your account is "tinytinybitofskill [-]" (I know, it won't fit on KGS), and it's no secret it's you.

I think it would be fine to say "you really should post your rank when you offer a teaching game", which is pretty much what happened here. You weren't punished, you were just gently advised to post a rank.

jts · **#77**

Thanks, Doug. That answers my question, and the attitude of (at least the majority of) the admins seems to be correct.

Bantari · **#78**

walpurgis wrote:

That said, I do find it interesting if your ip was looked up specifically for not wanting to showing your rank. Although I find it at least equally interesting that you are so much offended by that.

I find the ip lookup in this case normal, I think. If I was an admin, and somebody in KTL would behave contrary to what I understand should be done there (and, as you say, this is another discussion) - I would want to know if this is a noob not knowing any better or an old hand getting frisky. It might influence the way I wish to handle the situation.

I am not sure if I would make the comment that was made in public, probably not. But even the public comment, while I would call it 'awkward', is really not a big deal - I mean, what does it say? That you have more than one account? Big deal - everybody does. Unless you were trying to hide this fact, there should be no issue.

Also, a public comment like that reinforces the rooms 'rules' as understood by the admin (which is another discussion) globally and gives others a clue as to what the mystery game request might be - a teacher or a student. So there are some advantages of such public comments.

All in all, I do not understand what is the big deal here.
If somebody wants to go out of their way to accuse KGS admins of something, there are *much* better examples.

NoSkill · **#79**

I just didn't like them posting something about me public. I wôuld have your anyone I had more accounts, but it felt wrong for an admin to do that. I know the room message, but you can tell it is aimed at people just joining the room. Also, when it suggests you post a rank, that is for players new to the room, o guide them on how to get a game. It does not mean you must reveal a rank, or something.

Perhaps in wrong, but from experience the - new accounts lead to some fun games. I wonder what Dr. Straw would say about the - rank thing as long as its not abused.

Bantari · **#80**

NoSkill wrote:

I just didn't like them posting something about me public. I wôuld have your anyone I had more accounts, but it felt wrong for an admin to do that. I know the room message, but you can tell it is aimed at people just joining the room. Also, when it suggests you post a rank, that is for players new to the room, o guide them on how to get a game. It does not mean you must reveal a rank, or something.

Perhaps in wrong, but from experience the - new accounts lead to some fun games. I wonder what Dr. Straw would say about the - rank thing as long as its not abused.

Well, it is a teaching room, so I feel it natural that some kind of clue is given: are you looking for teacher, or student, and what is your rank or rank-range you are interested in playing. If you just looking for friendly unrated games, this is probably the wrong room to do it in. Thus the admin reaction, which I also find natural.

Problem with admins (yes this thread again)

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