1. Actually, I don't use a Mac anymore, though it was the platform I mentioned I might start using. That just depends on whether I decide I don't care enough about FOSS and whether I can save a few pennies. I use windows at work (where I have perhaps once or twice gone on a go client), Ubuntu at home, and iOS.

2. In spite of that, Mac applications typically have a lot of UI consistency that is present to a lesser degree in Windows, and users who guard that consistency more jealously. I used to be incredibly annoyed that you had to use Ctrl to cut/copy/paste in KGS. Now I just take I'm just resigned to the idea that my Windows (and oh my jesus, Linux) apps will have less consistency than I expect.

So if your goal is to avoid complaints about the look and feel of your app, target iOS and the Mac for your most exacting UI work. But that little aside was the least important piece of what I said. If you disagree, it only makes it harder for someone to get it right.

Edit: phrasing

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Occupy Babel!

That makes more sense. I realize it wasn't the main point of your statement, but it piqued my curiousity enough to inquire.

Because by default Windows gets a decent client?

I found the comment of maproom to be so lazy and predictable that I didn't feel any need to answer on it. Of course KGs gets the job done and there's no need for sound as long as you can still play. But does that mean it's fine as it is? I don't think so. Answers like these are just lazy excuses from people that for some reason feel way too attached to something. Have read them hundreds of times already and frankly I'm sick of them, thus I faded away and let the discussion go on without me.

Like who?!?
From what I see, those who would, already do (Nova!) And many of them who try just fizzle out (Kaya!)
Other than this - I see no legions of programmers eagerly awaiting their chance at developing (or even maintaining) a Go server.

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- Bantari
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Is there a development where people move away from KGS? Like: Are there about as many members at KGS like 3 years ago? I just ask because yesterday I played my first game at tygem and I know it'll sound silly, but the sound there made such an impression to me^^. I would not have believed it, but if you have a choice then a working sound rounds up the whole playing experience.

I've heard anecdotal evidence, people saying that there were much fewer of X rank recently than Y years ago due to whatever reason (the fall of the Hikaru wave being a common one). I've not seen any hard numbers though.

I mostly play on Tygem these days or on WBaduk when I am on iPad.

(I do not have the stone-click problem because I am avoiding the Java update. I do not understand, however, that repairing this issue is such problem, apparently.)

While KGS has great teaching tools, just for playing, I like the Tygem client more, mostly because it is more responsive (no lagging) and has voice countdown in byo-yomi.

So yes, I have more or less moved away from KGS.

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Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)

I'm not sure I follow. "Since people motivated enough to create completely new servers from scratch, there's no need to let them improve KGS." Is that what you're saying?


Then you're not looking. Many programmers who use KGS daily would be more than happy to make fixes and improvements, just to make their own lifes easier. Finding a new maintainer would not be an issue. That cgoban-h exists even though cgoban.jar is so thorougly obfuscated is proof enough.

Not at all, this is not what I am saying.
What I am saying is this: WMS stated many times he does not wish any helpers in KGS development. He has been repeating it for many years, and repeatedly. I just take this as my starting point - case closed.

Having the above - there are two options. Somebody writes a new server (from scratch, from Kaya's corpse, whatever) or somebody convinces WMS to *give* them KGS in its wholesome wholeness. Fat chance that will happen, imho, but lets say this is a possibility.

In either case - this will involve not just making changes to a server here and there, as needed, on a hobby-basis - but a serious full-blown server maintenance and development investment.

My contention is that people who would be willing to take this upon themselves, who have enough dedication, motivation, skill, time, and resources - they would already be doing it (thus my examples of Nova and Kaya.) It is hard for me to believe there is a set of people out there, with all these necessary attributes, just sitting there waiting, moaning and groaning that they have nothing to. And if this is what they do - they are the wrong people.

I understand there are a lot of programmers out there who would like to look at the code, tinker a little, and never look at it again - but I don't think KGS (or any server) could survive such model. As far as I know, there is no successful server out there based on such approach. The old NNGS was sort-of based on that, but even then it was based on a very small group of dedicated developers who had to commit, not just anybody with an itching typing finger.


I am looking hard enough and have been around the block a few times.
And its not just an occasional 'tweak' we are talking about here - see above.

Why do you think so many servers or server-attempts fizzle out? Why do you think so many clients (for example IGS clients) become deprecated for lack of maintenance? Because to seriously maintain such project, even a much easier project like an IGS client or an SGF viewer, takes much more than just occasional tinker and fix.

At least - this is my opinion.

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- Bantari
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Well, my feeling is also that KGS loses members, because more and more I hear people that say it's hard to find an opponent and that they need to wait to long while at Tygem or IGS they get games more quickly. I just wonder...I'd not like KGS to have the fate of kaya.

This I know. But your "Like who?!?" sounded like there's nobody willing to help, which is completely different from not wanting help. (Of course, both may be true at the same time.)


I see what you're saying now, but I disagree. I know what it's like to start an ambitious project that competes with one that's well-established, and I know what it's like to maintain a mature software project. I think there's a world of difference between those two and at least personally I would be willing to do the latter in many cases where I wouldn't even consider the former.

You're wrong. KGS has survived on an even worse model for years (near abandonment), to the point where a basic feature, sound, has stopped working. Even if wms just let somebody in to fix the occasional bug the situation would be much improved.

I am not wrong.

KGS survived so long for a few very good reasons:

• Tons of work and effort was put in to build the community over the years - most of it by one man, for free... but we cannot forget the volunteers as well (admins, organizers, etc.)
• As part of the above - it has been diligently worked on and maintained over the years (present hiatus notwithstanding)
• It fulfills the need of this community, for most parts, providing most of the functionality we need (even without the sound 'feature' - it is still better than most alternatives)
• Every 'competitor' project so far either fizzled or did not take off (yet?) - and it remains to be seen if any will, in spite of all the work going into them

Now - some time ago KGS has slacked in maintenance and development.
It is not clear if it will survive that in the long run - unless something *big* happens, like a new client for example (yes yes, with the banged sound feature, fine!)
The mere fact that you we are talking about it, and that you (and some others) are so adamant about it - proves that KGS is not doing so well on the model of 'near abandonment.'

So lets recap:

• As long as KGS was maintained and worked on - it grew and prospered (some isolated voices of discontent to the contrary)
• Now that it becomes apparent that KGS is not well maintained anymore - there is a real danger that it will die

So no, I am not wrong.
If anything - all the above pretty much confirms what I was saying:
A *lot* of hard work and long thankless hours is needed to make something like that work.
And a very think skin - to deal with the few who constantly complain and bitch and point fingers.

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- Bantari
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You are right, of course - there is a difference.

However, there is really no such thing as 'just maintaining' in the long run - unless you are locked in a very stagnant environment.

A project has to develop, to grow, to adjust and morph and change. Look at Kaya - it had a good potential to marginalize KGS. Maybe Nova will do it. And if not - there will be other contenders coming. For KGS to thrive in the future it needs to do much more than just fix a bug here and there like the sound issue. I am surprised people don't see this.

Look around the web - things are constantly changing, and they need to, even disregarding constant and furious changes to technology.

Word is wms is working on a HTML client - which is a great start. Next year something else might be needed, possibly - dedicated iOS client, video streaming, who knows... Each of such 'additions' can be a big project in itself, requiring many long hours of thankless work. Its not just maintenance. Who knows, maybe the server will even need to be re-written to get away from its Java source when it becomes insufficient. Whoever takes on the 'maintenance' task has to also be ready to take on all this bigger stuff, or we might as well leave it as it is - because all you are talking about is a few cosmetic adjustments and fixes which will not really change anything in the long run.

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- Bantari
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Let's get real here. Serious development beyond tinkering stopped many, many years ago. Saying it has been "diligently" worked on in even the last 5 years is a joke. About the only area where significant effort has been put into has been the Android client, and that's a paid app. Getting back to the level where basic issues like sound are fixed would be a big improvement and get back to where the server has been for quite some time.

So there hasn't been any work done except for the work that's been done? I guess that's true...

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Occupy Babel!

What I said is true. I said significant effort, to correspond with Bantari's "diligent", not just "any work". And I can back it up, because wms helpfully publishes his changelogs online:

http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2007.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2008.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2009.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog-2010.txt
http://files.gokgs.com/changeLog.txt (2011-present)

Notice the dropoff from 2007 to 2008? (Yes, you'll have to click to see.) In 2007 he was average updates about every 3 months. In 2008 he had a gap between releases in February and December in which no releases were made, and it's not like December's release made up for it by including a ton of changes.

The last update was in Mar of 2012, and was an Android-only update.

Other than the sound feature I do not see why KGS needs further "maintance". It's a finished product. One of the mistakes of kaya was it to try to implement too many features. KGS is simple, stable & intuitive - that's its advantage. And as I understand WMS's work he's just rewriting KGS webbased, without significant changes.

There are several voices asking for new features (e.g., iPad versions, talking clocks, one-colour go, video streaming). Each of these is nice in its own right. Each of them also requires an investment of time to build, test and maintain. Let's look at the practicalities.

1. KGS is free to use (although you have to pay for the additional KGS Plus lectures and tournaments). Therefore, revenue doesn't exist to pay Bill to work on it full-time.

2. Bill has an actual job. The job market in IT in the US now is difficult. If Bill were to quit paid employment in order to work on KGS for free, it's a financial sacrifice for him and there's certainly no guaranntee that he'd get a job equivalent to the one he has now. Why would he do this?

For the people who are complaining about KGS' functionality, there is an option. Work together to identify a financial model that would provide Bill with the time and financial support required to work on KGS full-time. It's easy to type indignant comments about how KGS should have more features. Instead, work to make it happen. Complaining is the easy part.