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 Post subject: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #1 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 pm 
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I've learned out the hard way that Asian players are amazingly strong. My rating on KGS is 15 Kyu, but I reckon I'm more around 16-17 Kyu. I figured I would give Wbaduk a shot to see what that Go server was like, and boy, I was overwhelmed.

The first thing I noticed is they have pro's playing on that server. I guess this should've been expected considering it was an Asian server, but it still startled me to see so many games played by professional players. It was pretty cool to see.

So, I thought this would be a pretty cool place to play Go. My rank on Wbaduk, which I set some time ago, was set on 18 Kyu. I laughed. Literally. I've been able to defeat most 18K opponents handily on KGS, so I didn't think much of it. Then I got challenged by an 18 Kyu Chinese player.

Let me just say, the results of this game stem from two key points:
1. I played sloppy because I considered them weaker.
2. They totally kicked my butt.

As soon as we were ten moves in the game, I could tell I was getting a thrashing. It was a major head scratcher for me. But it also made me realize Just how much more I need to learn. While the defeat was still a fun game, I was frustrated I lost to an 18K opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #2 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:10 pm 
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Don't trust kyu ratings (especially ddk) on asian servers - there are many dans and strong sdks. It's a great way to play stronger players if you don't get frustrated :)

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #3 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Keep in mind that on WBaduk there are a lot of low ranked players who are actually very strong sandbaggers. Why sandbag, I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #4 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:49 pm 
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hailthorn011 wrote:
While the defeat was still a fun game, I was frustrated I lost to an 18K opponent.


That's what I like about wbaduk. The games are often a big bloodbath where both try to kill each other, at least on the korean (and to some extent the chinese) servers. It's great fun compared to mapping out a slightly bigger territory than your opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #5 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:07 am 
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There are for sure a lot of sandgabbers on wbdauk, but I guess this is not the only reason. I think the main reason is that they approach the game somehow differently.

I don't have a concrete information but I feel that after having learned the rules, the first thing they learn is how to fight. Maybe they just learn to count the liberties of their groups, maybe something else, but they start with learning something that the beginners in the west underestimate.

Otherwise I cannot explain how it is possible that a ddk can fight that well. If a ddk fights like that, I would tend to say I cannot imagine dan players... But no, the wbaduk dan players are weak compared to kgs dan players. What a puzzle...

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #6 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:04 am 
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The DDK and SDK don't fight really well...
It's just overplay and overplay and overplay again !
If you just play calmly and without "pre-play" option they are not so strong in fighting.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #7 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:23 am 
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``` wrote:
The DDK and SDK don't fight really well...
It's just overplay and overplay and overplay again !
If you just play calmly and without "pre-play" option they are not so strong in fighting.


Agreed, they overplay a lot and make small moves. If you can handle that it's not so hard. I always use pre play because it's the default and I just figured it would be harder to get games if I disabled it thinking my opponents would prefer to use it. I use it too sometimes, but it's a crutch.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #8 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:26 am 
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``` wrote:
The DDK and SDK don't fight really well...
It's just overplay and overplay and overplay again !
If you just play calmly and without "pre-play" option they are not so strong in fighting.


I think they are. Apparently they have no clue about joseki, fuseki, strategy, etc but when it comes to close range fighting they are good, even without pre-play. I would say a wbaduk 10-11k fights at least as well as a kgs 3-4k.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #9 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:37 am 
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I'm sorry, I have never heard that term before. What is "Pre-play"?

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #10 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:00 am 
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Chew Terr wrote:
I'm sorry, I have never heard that term before. What is "Pre-play"?


You can experiment on the board (actually, a different board that appears when you click the pre-play button, as I remember) before deciding where to play yourself.

Like saving the game on KGS, then editing the sgf to check out your sequences before deciding where to play, but built into the client.


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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #11 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:03 am 
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amnal wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:
I'm sorry, I have never heard that term before. What is "Pre-play"?


You can experiment on the board (actually, a different board that appears when you click the pre-play button, as I remember) before deciding where to play yourself.

Like saving the game on KGS, then editing the sgf to check out your sequences before deciding where to play, but built into the client.


Interesting. So kind of like playing through the game on a real board simultaneously, and using it to test variations. Not sure how I feel about that. It seems like it shouldn't affect rank, though, since it would contribute to setting their rank in the first place. Thanks for the explanation, amnal.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #12 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:33 am 
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entropi wrote:
There are for sure a lot of sandgabbers on wbdauk, but I guess this is not the only reason. I think the main reason is that they approach the game somehow differently.

I don't have a concrete information but I feel that after having learned the rules, the first thing they learn is how to fight. Maybe they just learn to count the liberties of their groups, maybe something else, but they start with learning something that the beginners in the west underestimate.

Otherwise I cannot explain how it is possible that a ddk can fight that well. If a ddk fights like that, I would tend to say I cannot imagine dan players... But no, the wbaduk dan players are weak compared to kgs dan players. What a puzzle...


i have 3 account on tygem. two of them are 5dan one with 5kyu.
i won 16 straight games so they pushme up to 3kyu but still...i can not lose.

i met few that are sandbagger themself. they were strong as me but they were 4 kyu.
i guess many have second account that is for amusement.
i still want to enjoy go but i dont wanna be pressured sometimes. that is the time i use my kyu account.

there was a news article in tygem saying that someone started with lowest rank possible and went up to 9Dan without losing any games. the ultimate sandbagger. :)
personally if i play evengame with such sandbagger i would be happy.
you will learn more from the game you lose than win.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #13 Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:01 am 
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Magicwand wrote:

i have 3 account on tygem. two of them are 5dan one with 5kyu.
i won 16 straight games so they pushme up to 3kyu but still...i can not lose.

i met few that are sandbagger themself. they were strong as me but they were 4 kyu.
i guess many have second account that is for amusement.
i still want to enjoy go but i dont wanna be pressured sometimes. that is the time i use my kyu account.

there was a news article in tygem saying that someone started with lowest rank possible and went up to 9Dan without losing any games. the ultimate sandbagger. :)
personally if i play evengame with such sandbagger i would be happy.
you will learn more from the game you lose than win.

Yes, but what if everybody does it?

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #14 Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:52 am 
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Um... So what if everyone does it? (It may well be true that most players do it, I personally can't really see a big problem with that).

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #15 Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Well... no ranking system on this planet would work!!!

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #16 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:45 am 
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Ranks are overrated.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #17 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:59 am 
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Even if they are, it doesn't make them non-useful, and it doesn't solve the problem of sandbaggers mucking up a ranking system.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #18 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:36 pm 
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I think, on dan level(and sometimes strong kyu) wbaduk is about 2 stone sweaker than EGF. So, wbaduk 4d would mean EGF 2d(if oyu play slow, serious games).

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #19 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:13 pm 
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``` wrote:
The DDK and SDK don't fight really well...
It's just overplay and overplay and overplay again !
If you just play calmly and without "pre-play" option they are not so strong in fighting.


Pre-play is fun! (You should still try to read without using it, but it adds sth. to the server. As does the awesome score estimator which will surprise every KGS user by its precision.) I doubt that Korean late-night blitz-gamers are using pre-play so much though. It is just, they expose the basic weaknesses of KGS DDK very well.

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 Post subject: Re: KGS Player -----> Wbaduk
Post #20 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Pre-play and accurate SE would be awesome for kibitzing. I definitely wouldn't want those while playing the game though.

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