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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #161 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 1:22 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Sente unless I badly misread the corner

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #162 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 3:10 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The suspense is killing me : D

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #163 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 3:12 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:rambo:

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #164 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 3:27 am 
Oza

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I think topazg has severly underestimated the importance of j4 and the thickness black now has and his thinness, versus the thickness he would have if black gave it up. White's lower side group is now trash (so with that weakness r5 is much harder to wake up), and there is a cut at h6. j3 or skydyr's h2 feel a lot more important than 3-3 to me. And h2 could even make blocking the corner sente for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . 7 2 5 0 X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 X 9 a . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: skydyr
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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #165 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:34 am 
Gosei
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No way, José! You tenuki'd :b49: and I think settling the shapes at the bottom is more important than points in the corner. Especially when I'm longing to plop some stones in the center.

"Pressant avant grand!", as the tenth doctor would possibly say.


I apologise sincerly for any butchering of the french language, it's been a while since I learnt it.


There are actually some moves I consider...:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . c a . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X d . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O b f O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

'c' seems lacklustre. Or is it so plain that it's actually great, like Shuei-style? Chan, I don't really see the Miai follow-up, tho (maybe 'e' and 'f'?).

'a' looks nice but I feel White can settle easily by Hane underneath and Keima in the corner. Although I very much like the exchange after the Keima because it makes his white approach stone much less anoying to deal with.

'b' seems powerful but also thin and a little bit complicated. If he extends towards the center I really don't want to connect underneath but play Hane from the top. Does that make 'b' a good inducing move or does it only end up as Mochikomi?

'd' was my first choice. Strong and thick. Though, I have a hard time coming up with follow-up moves or even a sequence for both sides...

What would Go Seigen do?

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #166 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:32 am 
Oza

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SoDesuNe wrote:
No way, José! You tenuki'd :b49: and I think settling the shapes at the bottom is more important than points in the corner. Especially when I'm longing to plop some stones in the center.


There's a tricky psychological element here. If we assume that SoDesuNe is correct that the lower side is more urgent that answering in the corner, then even if the best move is to play there now that means incurring a loss in the top right from giving white two moves in a row there. The fact topazg has played those moves in the top left and then this move suggests he may not view the lower side as urgent, so if black answers this attachment probe white might not come back to "correct" his mistake and play at the bottom but do something else. In which case SoDesuNe could have his cake and eat it by answering here so as not to incur the loss in this corner, topazg does his move somewhere else that's not so important, and then he plays the lower side. In a real game you can see where your opponent is looking on the board to help make this decision ;-) .

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #167 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 7:14 am 
Oza

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Uberdude wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
No way, José! You tenuki'd :b49: and I think settling the shapes at the bottom is more important than points in the corner. Especially when I'm longing to plop some stones in the center.


There's a tricky psychological element here. If we assume that SoDesuNe is correct that the lower side is more urgent that answering in the corner, then even if the best move is to play there now that means incurring a loss in the top right from giving white two moves in a row there. The fact topazg has played those moves in the top left and then this move suggests he may not view the lower side as urgent, so if black answers this attachment probe white might not come back to "correct" his mistake and play at the bottom but do something else. In which case SoDesuNe could have his cake and eat it by answering here so as not to incur the loss in this corner, topazg does his move somewhere else that's not so important, and then he plays the lower side. In a real game you can see where your opponent is looking on the board to help make this decision ;-) .

Of course, sometimes they deliberately look away from the part of the board they are interested in so as not to draw your attention there. Tricky devils, opponents.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #168 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 8:32 am 
Oza

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Ah yes, but exaggerated bluff looking looks different to real looking!

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #169 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 8:32 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I just go with my gut.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #170 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 8:52 am 
Oza

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This turn locally feels nice, but it makes this cut less appealing with the empty triangle it creates:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 9 0 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #171 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 12:07 pm 
Dies with sente

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@Uberdude
I fail to see better local candidates than the turn that was played. Is there one, which leaves the cut more severe. Or would you cut directly without/before turning?

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #172 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 12:39 pm 
Oza

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@bayu
bayu wrote:
@Uberdude
I fail to see better local candidates than the turn that was played. Is there one, which leaves the cut more severe. Or would you cut directly without/before turning?


It depends what I think I can do inside white's left side with moves like c8 and d6. If nothing works then I might let white strengthen it and then play more severely on the lower group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 O 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #173 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 5:06 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As I commented a fair bit earlier, anything other than this really is just suicide at the bottom. Even this is very painful.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #174 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 7:44 pm 
Judan

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That group on the bottom sure is weak.

As a side note, I am bringing a blindfold to my next tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #175 Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:27 pm 
Judan

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Kirby wrote:
That group on the bottom sure is weak.

As a side note, I am bringing a blindfold to my next tournament.


:mrgreen:

How about silvered sunglasses?

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #176 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 2:43 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #177 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:33 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


A disaster. My rambo move was so poorly thought through, funny how "reading" helps in Go :P

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #178 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:37 am 
Gosei
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Liked others: 346
Was liked: 271
Rank: 2d-2k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Not sure, how I will follow it up...

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #179 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:42 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4470
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Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My poor, poor R4 stone.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #180 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:56 am 
Judan

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topazg wrote:

My poor, poor R4 stone.


Actually, it's R-05. But yes: ¡pobrecito!

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