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 Post subject: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:15 am 
Dies in gote

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Hey jeromie, let's decide black or white with odd or even.
Click to show
I guess if you guess correctly you get black? We're both 9kyus, do you want to play with a 6.5 komi or no komi?
Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:57 am 
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I'll guess even. Since we're the same rank, let's play with komi.

Edit: I was wrong, so you can set up the board with your first move when you're ready.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:24 am 
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Alright, here we go! Good luck.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Take a corner. My preference with black is to lead with double komuku

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:54 am 
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Thanks awef! I hope we can play a good game together.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since we're playing a turn based game it's a little tempting to try something crazy, but since it's closed book I'm going to stick with what I know. I almost always play this move as white in my online games; it lets me retain maximum flexibility to respond to black's next move. It also eliminates the possibility of a cross fuseki game, with which I have significantly less experience. (Though as my reading has gotten stronger, I think I could handle it.)

Unless he does something crazy, I'll probably play a 3-4 point on my next move and plan on enclosing the corner unless he approaches immediately. I like the balance of having one corner enclosure to start working on territory and a 4-4 stone I can use maintain influence in the center.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:55 am 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm. This is the move I usually play. I was also considering
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


3 is where I 'expect' white to play since Studying Shusaku. I considered playing it with the mindset 'your opponent's point is your own'. But if I play there, I'll feel obligated to make a shimari from that point with my next move to mitigate the influence of white 2. I also considered the other komoku point in the top left, but in the end I prefer my move. If he takes the other empty corner, I can enclose the top right and if he approaches bottom right I'll be able to extend from a corner enclosure and pincer at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I said earlier, this was my plan all along. I've made this 3-4 / 4-4 move in the fuseki since seeing one of a Nick Sibicky's lectures on YouTube. I actually like this quite a bit with black's two 3-4 stones. If awef prioritizes the 3-4 corner enclosures we could end up with a position like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think this position looks good for white (though I'm uncertain how it would be seen by professionals--I'll have to look it up after the game is over!), so I don't think things will play out quite this way. But that means I should get to approach one of his 3-4 stones before he makes an enclosure and/or deny the extensions he wants. If it does end up like this, I'll be happy to play from this position.

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Post #7 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:30 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi awef,
awef wrote:
to lead with double komuku
Komoku.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:12 pm 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enclosing the corner, it's solid. I deny him the approach on the top right that his top left is aiming at. Also, when he approaches my bottom right, I can pincer and extend in one move.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:23 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In an earlier post I said that this shape looked good for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But the more I look at it, the more I think this puts white in a bind. If both player keep playing peacefully, then the board ends up like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The extensions and joseki choices in the lower left might be a bit different (since I don't know a lot of joseki this is the first thing that comes to mind) but the general idea will remain the same: white looks cramped compared to black and will have a hard time keeping black from making a massive moyo on the right that builds solid territory AND radiates influence across the board. It's not completely unplayable for white, but the territorial advantage black has with the second shimari will probably pay off by the end of the game. Because of this, I think white needs to go ahead and approach the lower right.

In addition to my own reasoning, I've been watching the Malkovich game between SoDesuNe and topazg. (For the record, since this is a closed book game, I started watching that game before I began playing this one: I didn't go look it up when this fuseki occurred.) When a similar (though not identical) fuseki took place, topaz approached the lower right corner. The play of stronger players confirms my own thoughts: white needs a move in the lower right to prevent black's right side from becoming too strong.

Honestly, my biggest hesitation in playing this move is my lack of joseki knowledge. Even though the high approach to a 3-4 stone is really common, I don't have the follow up moves memorized. That makes me a little nervous: I expect him to attach underneath the stone, but I'll have to play out a few variations to see what response gives me a result that I like.


edit: I left out a word in my explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #10 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:20 am 
Oza

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jeromie wrote:
But the more I look at it, the more I think this puts white in a bind. If both player keep playing peacefully, then the board ends up like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X e . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , B . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . O . . . d . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In this position, white should probably play the marked stone one space closer, as shown, since it puts a lot of pressure on black's group if black doesn't respond. All of the moves A through E also look like good reductions or probes for white to play with his sente, that should keep black's moyo from getting out of hand. If nothing else, black played the marked black stone low, meaning that white can easily cap to limit any moyo potential, so white may want to play A before he approaches on the left even. Perhaps playing A and maybe E depending on how black answers to see what black wants, and then playing the appropriate reduction of B, C, or D is in order?

It's not to be forgotten also that white has great potential in the upper left with the marked white stone in place to counter black's potential.

Of course, white's other option to black's initial approach on the left side is to pincer, which may also turn out decently.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:16 am 
Dies in gote

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KGS: awef 9kyu
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The high approach. I don't like the pincer vs the high approach. I played 7 to settle my corner in sente so that I can approach his top left.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:24 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Played so I stop overthinking this move. As I said above, I don't know the joseki move. I tried a bunch of variations while flying from Denver to San Francisco. None of them are obviously great, but this fits with my primary aim: build some outside influence and keep black in the corner. I need a move on the left side of black's stones for this to work, so the sequence of moves coming up is important. I'm afraid this will give black too large a corner, but my brain is going in cycles and I need to play something. I'm in the airport (ultimately going to Portland), so I may post some diagrams later.

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Post #13 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:57 am 
Honinbo
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Hi jeromie,
jeromie wrote:
I've been watching the Malkovich game between SoDesuNe and topazg. ...
When a similar (though not identical) fuseki took place, topaz approached the lower right corner. The play of stronger players confirms my own thoughts ...
Things to consider:
  • That game (lower right corner) bears almost no resemblance to this game.(*)
  • We don't really know the meanings behind all their moves,
    despite their own comments. Sometimes they themselves admit they don't know.
  • They could be wrong. Especially at these levels.

So, do your own analysis, and play what you think is the best move. :)

_______
(*) In that game, W approached low; in this game, high.
That's about 150 to 200 pages different, at least.
( I don't have the exact page counts of Ishida and Takao this moment.) :)
That's just one corner.
Globally, that game is also different from this.

Reference: Thread to that game.

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 Post subject: Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:19 am 
Dies in gote

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KGS: awef 9kyu
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


*Thanks skydyr for helping me out with the diagram code

I expect

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In retrospect I think I should've tried the pincer and emphasized the right, maybe something like

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm7 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 9 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . c d . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . a b . . e . . 5 . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but then white I suppose white can tenuki and enclose the corner, so I don't know which line I prefer. I like extending to 15 in response to white 14, or perhaps approaching bottom left corner at either a,b,c or d since a white move at e limits my bottom group and even threatens to seal me in if I'm not careful.


Last edited by awef on Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #15 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:44 am 
Oza

Posts: 2493
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awef wrote:
(unhidden) *Anyone know why the diagrams are showing up wonky? If you look at the diagram code it's not what is being shown.


You can only number from 1-9 and then 0 for 10. After that, you need to make a new diagram and increment the move counter at the beginning (the number after m in the first line) to the number you want it to use for 1 on the diagram. This may make more sense if you look at diagrams later in the game from other malkoviches. In addition, the numbering in this manner can only go up to 99 or maybe 00, so you have to start over afterwards.

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Post #16 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:12 am 
Lives in sente

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@EdLee

Yes, I wasn't using that game as my reason for the move. In fact, as you said, I used a different approach. (I wanted my move to be biased toward outside influence rather than edge/corner territory.) Since I was writing all my thought process, I just thought it fair to mention that seeing that game acted as confirmation (to me) that my idea wasn't horrible. Their game is, of course, no help whatsoever in the follow up. We've already diverged tremendously; any similarity is lost.

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Post #17 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:25 pm 
Judan

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OGS: Uberdude 7d
Professional level game so far :tmbup:

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Post #18 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:45 pm 
Dies in gote

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Thanks for helping me with the diagram code skydyr. Fixed it.

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Post #19 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:45 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems to work best with my previous move. Depending on black's next move I will either descend to s6 or attach at P3, building a wall on the right side or bottom. If my wall is on the right, I expect black to extend to r3. I'll probably play on the other side and start a fight.

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Post #20 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:34 pm 
Honinbo
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Interesting to see some non-standard shapes -- :w10:.

At least one difference from the standard shapes is W cannot resist B (a) hane with W (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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