21. Magicwand (3d) vs. wms (1d)

wms · **#21**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 i guess always 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This will probably be my last update for a few hours.

Magicwand · **#22**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 i guess always 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . W . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is a probe. i want to see how he answer before making my move.
i will tell you a quote from my master "there are 10,000 variations in the corner" i can not tell you all of them.. i might try some if i get the time... below is one variation that will leave ko in the corner. i just want to see if he answer as below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 i guess always 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . W . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but he might play as below..to kill everything.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 i guess always 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . W . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

depends on how he answer i want to push his moyo down..and limit the expansion. that is all i need for 10 point lead. a~g sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 i guess always 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . g . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . a d c , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . W . . X b f . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · **#23**

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Jordus · **#24**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

.

i was asking opinions on that here:

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=1121#p1121

Dusk Eagle · **#25**

schultz · **#26**

Not for players

Kirby · **#27**

You guys should be able to use the # sign in your board diagrams, again.

Loons · **#28**

schultz wrote:

Not for players

wms · **#29**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

schultz · **#30**

wms wrote:

For wms:

wms · **#31**

Magicwand - My last comment was a question about whether it was OK to use dictionaries. Feel free to read my comment (and schultz's response). If you think no references, I'll happily take my move back; without a dictionary, I probably would have played on the 3-4 point. I knew on my own that 3-4 wasn't the killing move, but without a dictionary wasn't sure whether it was 2-4 or 2-5. Playing 3-4 would have been the "safe" (ie unlikely to explode in my face even though not the best), so I'm guessing I would have made it in a live game.

And going forward, use references or no? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, with them available, I'd feel like I should use them on every joseki, which seems less fun. But looking up positions in the middle of a game seems a great learning tool also, so there's an upside to it.

I'll go with whatever you want - move my piece to 3-4 and no references, leave it as-is and no more references, leave it as-is and references from now on, or maybe leave it as-is, use references, but we need to own up to it when a move was influenced by one?

Magicwand · **#32**

wms wrote:

Magicwand - My last comment was a question about whether it was OK to use dictionaries. Feel free to read my comment (and schultz's response). If you think no references, I'll happily take my move back; without a dictionary, I probably would have played on the 3-4 point. I knew on my own that 3-4 wasn't the killing move, but without a dictionary wasn't sure whether it was 2-4 or 2-5. Playing 3-4 would have been the "safe" (ie unlikely to explode in my face even though not the best), so I'm guessing I would have made it in a live game.

And going forward, use references or no? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, with them available, I'd feel like I should use them on every joseki, which seems less fun. But looking up positions in the middle of a game seems a great learning tool also, so there's an upside to it.

I'll go with whatever you want - move my piece to 3-4 and no references, leave it as-is and no more references, leave it as-is and references from now on, or maybe leave it as-is, use references, but we need to own up to it when a move was influenced by one?

you may use anything you wish.

oh..another thing..i will win this game anyway.. so really doesnt matter.. :mrgreen:

using joseki dictionary will only help the quality of this game..i am all for it.

Magicwand · **#33**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

unkx80 · **#34**

Question: is there a standard for hiding all kibitz, or not hiding kibitz for already played-out positions?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer to play B55 here. No way white can live inside, while putting a bit of pressure on the left white stone. Black a puts about as much pressure on the white stone, but leaves behind the possibility of white entering the 3-3 point.

If I really want to attack the white stone, then I would play at b instead.

Phelan · **#35**

I don't think there's a standard yet.

fwiffo · **#36**

Generally people err on the side of hiding most comments.

Magicwand · **#37**

in my personal opinion hiding comments and variation is less construtive and defeats the purpose of the game.

i really dont care if i win or lose. but i try my best to win.
my main purpose of the game is to teach weaker player how i think.
although i dont comment as much as topagz or others but many times i see their comments full of useless variation that weaker people really dont need. what you need is 1 or 2 prediction. if the game gets complicated then making 10~20 variation is not necessary.
you wait till your opponent makes his move and go on from there.

And if they dont hide the comment then i can help them as they comment. and also i really dont think what other people says about my game change what i play. and i have yet to see other people's varation that i didnt think about.

but i am only 1 person so i just follow the rule.

topazg · **#38**

Magicwand wrote:

in my personal opinion hiding comments and variation is less construtive and defeats the purpose of the game.

i really dont care if i win or lose. but i try my best to win.
my main purpose of the game is to teach weaker player how i think.
although i dont comment as much as topagz or others but many times i see their comments full of useless variation that weaker people really dont need. what you need is 1 or 2 prediction. if the game gets complicated then making 10~20 variation is not necessary.
you wait till your opponent makes his move and go on from there.

And if they dont hide the comment then i can help them as they comment. and also i really dont think what other people says about my game change what i play. and i have yet to see other people's varation that i didnt think about.

but i am only 1 person so i just follow the rule.

I agree with this completely. I'm actually very happy with my opponent reading out my comments and thoughts as we play in my 1 vs 1 games too. I might try one like that (although I can understand not looking at analysis from stronger players midgame) at some point. I don't want to beat my opponent because I tricked them, or picked a move they just didn't see, I don't really care about winning. What I want to do is play the best game possible - if I read my opponent has thought of a continuation I didn't consider, I'll remember it for future, and I'll try to outplay it with a better subvariation again. Likewise, my opponent will read my new deviation, and either laugh at its poor quality or come up with a new improvisation that's even better, and so on.

I think games played like this may be much more instructional, because "trick" plays simply can't work and all moves have to be fundamentally as "good" as possible.

dfan · **#39**

I wouldn't want all games to be that way, but it might be fun for two players who both wanted to try to have a completely out-in-the-open game.

Magicwand · **#40**

unkx80 wrote:

Question: is there a standard for hiding all kibitz, or not hiding kibitz for already played-out positions?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer to play B55 here. No way white can live inside, while putting a bit of pressure on the left white stone. Black a puts about as much pressure on the white stone, but leaves behind the possibility of white entering the 3-3 point.

If I really want to attack the white stone, then I would play at b instead.

21. Magicwand (3d) vs. wms (1d)

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