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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #41 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:22 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My group is safe (I think). This looks like the biggest area on the board. I'm not sure about the correct extension, but this looks appropriate (I feel R10 would be too close to his group, R8 too timid and Q9 would allow him to slide under)

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #42 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:51 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, intuitively this feels pretty painful. I have gone wrong somewhere, I think, and am behind. Most likely the left side was much too slow, and possibly the upper right side is much too slow. I am not exactly sure.

I need to take stock of the entire balance of territory here, but I don't think it will affect that I think I need to invade the 3-3 here. White now has a rather tight double wing and I'm not going to get in otherwise. I need to invade the 3-3 here and then at the end of the sequence figure out what to do next. In general I'm not thrilled with what I've gotten here.

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #43 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:13 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #44 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:40 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #45 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:19 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought about this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 7 6 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I wouldn't like this too much:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #46 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:59 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
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KGS: 4kyu
So in general getting to here is why I wanted to play a Malkovich game. It seems sure that I have had some totally wrong thinking up to this point because I don't much like my position, but I now I am at a period where I need to make some strategic choices, so I want to write a longish post where I attempt to analyse the position.

Ok, so I am now quite sure that I am behind, which means that what I have done has been too slow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . S S . . . . S . . . . . . S . . . |
$$ | . . S S . . . . S . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X S X S S S . . x . O . S . . . |
$$ | . O S X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | S S O . x . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X S S |
$$ | S S X . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . . |
$$ | . . S , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . S . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . S . . . . . . . . . . x . . O . . |
$$ | . . S . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X S |
$$ | S S X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O S S S S S O S S . . O X . . |
$$ | S S O S . . x . . . . . S O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . S O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Taking the squares as guides, I have 10 on the left, maybe 9 on the top, 13 or so in the top left, 10 in the lower right, 42. W has 7 komi, a prisoner, 35 on the bottom, 9 or something top corner, 51.

But that doesn't seem like very much of the story. W has a nice wall in the lower right, is really high on the bottom, and is making a giant moyo. I have a little room to grow on the left and on the top, but nothing like what W has.

In exchange, W's upper left group doesn't have that much room to grow and his upper-right group is theoretically weak if it were the only thing on the board.

So I need to do something to turn the tide here. If I had a bunch of moves in a row, the x's are first glances around places I would like to play, I guess.

What W needs to do to basically end the game:
-connect his weak group on top to his other stones or make eyes with it.
-solidify his bottom territory
-enclose his moyo.

W doesn't need to do anything to me in particular, I think, because if he accomplishes these things I just wont get enough of the board to have a chance to win.

I am not sure what the correct order of those things would be for W, i.e., which of them is biggest. I think that enclosing his bottom territory is probably the smallest, bc even if I make a living group in there he will be alive on both sides.

But is enclosing his moyo or dealing with his weak stones more important? I think enclosing his moyo probably is, especially if he can just connect his top group to his stone on the right side.

I am worried about him being able to make his bottom territory invasion-proof, but it seems like the only way I can accomplish 2 of my goals at once is to try to reduce his moyo while separating his 2 groups, if that is even possible.

I see that I might be able to build a N/S wall from K17 toward Tengen if he runs to the left, which would be nice, but really an E/W wall from R12 going left won't do anything except separate his stones as far as I can see. However, that seems a really important objective right now. But I don't like the idea of just helping him enclose his moyo unless I am committing to trying to kill the top group, which might not be possible.

I would like to play M17 to make it difficult for him to make eyes on top, but if I do he will be able to play something like P11 and it will be hopeless to try to separate the 2 groups. Or maybe not? If I play at Q10 could I really stay in between him and the other W stones all the way across the board? I am wondering if that is possible. Sooner or later he would have to defend the bottom and I would get an extra move. I need to return to that idea later.

But what if I can't separate the 2 groups and he lives above and encloses some moyo below? I will at least have reduced the bottom some, but will I have anything else to show for this? I won't make any territory. I'll just make a useless string of stones.

I am thinking that M17 and P11 (assuming he can then connect) are kind of miai--W can either make life on top or connect to his other stones. So unless I can let W have a running move and still keep him apart, M17 is definitely wrong. I think that I need to find a way to play P11 such that he has to respond with his bottom group and I can then get sente later to play M17 and maybe later make some territory in the upper left centre whether he lives or not. I need to do this in such a way that I don't ruin my chances to invade on the bottom and/or run my group out from there if I can't make eyes. But if I can play some kind of move like P11 or something maybe I will have a stone closer to be able to run out from the bottom if I need to?

Anyway, there are several things I need to look at: Whether I can separate W's two groups or not. That's what I'm going to do here, then I will come back later to consider whether I can give W a running move and still keep W apart. So, some initial concrete stuff. This plan would have me playing somewhere around P11 to separate the 2 groups. But whether I play Q12 (which is too slow I think), Q11 or P11 I am worried about this cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . 4 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 2 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...which I guess comes out ok. But that is only one variation. It is slightly further than I could read from the initial position (I couldn't tell whether I was short of liberties once W retakes the ko or if I never take it at all, so over the board I would've had a really tough decision and might've rejected the move to play the safer Q11 diagonal move instead.

Anyway, that's only one variation and I am maybe not looking at very good moves for W yet, so I need to come back later and look at more.

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #47 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:38 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
I am quite confused here.

This is a situation in which I think a stronger player could just glance at the top and say "that's stupid, you can't really do anything to that W group. It is alive and it doesn't matter whether it can run to the bottom or not.

But M17 looks to me like it could be a big move. If I play M17 then W can't make eyes on the edge. But is the move sente then? If W plays M17 himself would I need to respond? No. But for me is M17 now seriously threatening him?

M17 has at least the advantage of having a clear objective. In my previous post I mentioned that I thought that if I couldn't separate the two groups that I would build an E/W wall across the middle running between two living W groups that won't do anything. If I play M17 and W runs or N15 or something, I am making profit while I build downwards on the M-line, but only some bc W can come in from C14. But at least I understand what that wall is supposed to do.

I am having real problems figuring out if separating the two groups from each other is even a tactical possibility. Gah, am so muddled in spots like this.

If I knew I would have sente at the end of an invasion of the bottom I think I might just play that. If I can live down there the score would be closer to even, but if it was gote then W would get another move to help his big moyo or maybe M17 is in fact big for W.

I can't really figure out whether/where the W group on the top would go or what it would do if I chased it so I am going to try to move that down my list of problems to solve. I'm going to try to figure out instead:
Is M17 sente?
Is making a reducing move along Q9/L4 somewhere going to hurt my chances of invading the bottom?
Should I just invade the bottom right now?

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #48 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:08 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . 3 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have decided on this for the following reasons:
-It might be sente.
-It stops W from making eyes on the top.
-It might help me against a future W play at H17
-I can't figure out whether I can separate the two groups or not. This move helps me avoid tactical complications that might go badly for me against a stronger opponent.
-The top group could maybe live if I just tried to separate them right now.
-The moyo in the R half of the board isn't that much bigger if W connects those two groups, assuming I can reduce, maybe 10-15 points additional?
-This move has clear followups that I understand how to play.
-My thinking about the position is no longer really improving, I'm just going in circles.

So I'm going to play this, hope for the best, see what he does. I'm not going to run around trying to kill this group which is how I lose many a game, I am going to try to reduce W's right side moyo and I am going to try to invade at G3 or something. I am not sure what to do with my R side group yet as it's so flat, but I think something like E6 could be big for both players? But it's not as important as this right now, I don't feel.

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #49 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:16 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks biggest to me. D6 looks promising too, but for some reason I like this better.

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #50 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:12 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So this isn't going very well for me. I don't totally understand why he's able to tenuki in the upper right, unless it is that the moyo he is building here is just so big that it doesnt matter what happens to that group and I probably won't be able to kill it. Maybe my l&d is truly that weak but I would be worried about that group were I White.

Anyway, I have to respond here, I am not sure whether a reducing move like this is better than just a 3d line invasion at F3 or G3 in light of the fact that after he defends here I couldn't threaten to run out there as a means of getting some space. It's a judgment call for me, I guess, and my judgment is that this reduction is bigger than that invasion with no risk, doesn't hurt my chances of making a tiny living group down there later, and (I think but my stronger opponent does not apparently) gives me some chances against W's weak (I have to question whether this is actually true) group on the top.

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #51 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:35 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
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Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I definitely don't know what's best here. Other points I considered include:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . b . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . d . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . e . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's see how this goes...

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #52 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:08 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . 7 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, I'm feeling a little out of my depth here. I had not intended for this to be a deep invasion, I had intended for it to be a reduction.

Of course, I was reducing along the line E6-R9, and now W has played along the line E6-P14. I had just rejected this out of hand as being too thin, but now I have to figure out what's happening here.

He's cheating over to the left a bit to make it more difficult for me to get out that side. I have done a few variations but cant seem to find anything I'm comfortable with on that side, but I'm actually getting what I wanted in terms of possibly being able to separate the two groups if I run this way. (Whether it made any sense to want that is another story). I feel that my escape route has to go this way, toward my R side stone or toward the top if he decides to try to connect. If W is too thin here it's on this side, I think, so I can either go this way, try to make a complicated fight on the other side (I couldn't find anything that thriled me), try to live (no) or go this way. The knights move is as much as I dare stretch. I feel like I will be able get a reasonable position (barely) if he cuts my knight move here, but can't do any diagrams because I am on my pad? Overall, I feel like this is going very badly.

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #53 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:38 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
@Ortho for after the game:

You're needing to strengthen up here, so there are a number of ways out - either way, playing the knight gives White some interesting counters. You can simply play contact to escape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 7 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, his move is just overplay, so you can simply cut it off and force him to defend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures: White: 1 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . 8 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . 9 , O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Don't be intimidated if you think he's playing thin :)

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 Post subject: Re: #160: tj86430 v Ortho
Post #54 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:13 am 
Gosei

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Please accept my apologies for the long absence.

e: due to the long break we have agreed that there is no point in continuing, and thus I will resign. Thanks for the game.

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