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 Post subject: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #1 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Edit: I figured people might want to know our ranks.

I'm only rated on KGS where I'm a 4 kyu, but that's somewhat inflated; I got lucky and won a rated 5 kyu game on time. I was actually losing quite a lot as a 5 kyu, so let's say I'm a 6kyu.

Konfuzed said: KGS ranking is 6 and OGS is 4, but they aren't accurate. I think I am 6-7 kyu.

Have a good game. ^^


Nigiri
:white: :white: :white: :white:



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Are you okay with open book? I don't really mind either way but I'd slightly prefer it.


Last edited by Splatted on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #2 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:07 pm 
Lives with ko
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Was liked: 8
Good game! :salute:
Looks like I'm black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]





Open book is fine, use whatever resources you want to.
I am not used to writing hidden comments or making diagrams, so bear with me while I learn.

I have been playing for about a year, and have played around 60 games. I am probably around 6-7 kyu. I learned a lot from reading malkovich games. I'll do whatever I can to win, but I'll also be happy with the game if I can learn how to handle some unfamiliar situations. I think I need to lose some games and study them to improve.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #3 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:45 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 734
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Was liked: 138
Rank: Washed up never was
Universal go server handle: Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



konfuzed wrote:


I am not used to writing hidden comments or making diagrams, so bear with me while I learn.


That goes for both of us. Something I just realised: If you qoute a post, hidden messages aren't hidden... I managed to avoid reading it but it was a close call. :oops:


I played this because I'm really bad at fighting and I'm hoping he'll play a daigonal fuseki. That may seem like the opposite of what a non fighter wants, but I find it very difficult to play against something like the chinese fuseki where black builds a large moyo. I'd much rather have the board split up in to multiple weaker groups than find myself having to invade a large moyo. Hopefully Konfuzed's unusual desicion to play in the bottom left was a psychological ploy to increase the likelyhood of a diagonal opening.



Observers please read:

I'm trying to avoid learning which moves are Joseki at the moment, so please don't tell me. Of course that doesn't mean that once the game's moved on you shouldn't point out any problems with the way I played.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #4 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:48 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2493
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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
@Splatted
Why do you specifically want not to know if a move is joseki?

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #5 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:56 pm 
Lives with ko
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Liked others: 31
Was liked: 8
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For most people this is an exotic opening move, but for me I have probably used it as much as anything else. I feel like I will stop playing it when I'm satisfied I know it well enough and don't like its drawbacks.


This post by konfuzed was liked by 2 people: The Intrepid, Twitchy Go
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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #6 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:14 pm 
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I'll make my move after I've had time to think, but first:

@skydyr

It stops me from considering each move on its own merits. I stop thinking "this move threatens to move in to the corner and steal black's eyespace", and start thinking "this move is the next step in the sequence". I feel like I learn more from not knowing joseki and it's definitely more fun.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #7 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:26 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 734
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Rank: Washed up never was
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:o WTF is that? Not only did he not go for the diagonal fuseki, he also played something weird that I've no idea how to deal with. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before but I can't remember where... Possibly in a dream about the go wizard. (You have them too. Don't deny it) I think I need to consider some approaches before I decide how to play in the top left. My first instinct is to play something solid and territorial that doesn't have such a nice approach from the top right, so maybe D17.


I really didn't want to let him build up the top, but I'm not sure I can avoid it, so I'm looking at something like this now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is okay for white, but I also have to be prepared for something more like.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This doesn't seem so good, and is probably what Konfuzed is planning. I don't t hink I can stop black from building a wall here, so maybe I should go for something like Q15 and force him to give up more territory in exchange. Either way, I think I should get a better idea of how the rest of the board is going to turn out before I decide what to do on the top right.


Last edited by Splatted on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #8 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:46 pm 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 125
Liked others: 31
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I do not want him to make a shimari, and I know more about the high approach than the low approach.


This was what I wanted to try, I have used it a couple times before.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



What I think about him approaching my 6-4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . a b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A is a simple result I like. I get clean territory, he gets a wall with some aji.
If he plays B and I play R17, it can get complicated. I would like to practice these complications more.
C can lead to taisha. I am not sure how to feel about that.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #9 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:19 am 
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Some thoughts:

This is unexpected, and I'm not really sure what I think of it. I thought the point of the 6-4 stone in the top right was to take the top side. Did I missinterpret it? He may be using it to limit my potential for development after I take the top, but playing so far from the corner is going to have it's price at some point. Or at least that's what I hope. I don't think it's quite as slack on the corner as it looks. Invading is going to be like playing against a double approach. Definitely doable, but you can't expect to make a huge profit.

Still, I think if I can extend towards it along the top, it will start to look like a mistake. (imagine there's support for the white stone)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . a . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" and "b" seem like the obvious responses, but they leave the 6-4 stone looking very out of place. I guess that means that he won't let me do that, so it's actually quite tempting to just to go ahead and play there immediately. He'll probably picer if I do that now though. I'm going to think about it a bit more before I make my move.


P.s.
What I'm most worried about is something like this.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . 1 . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Though actually the weakness of the C17 group makes me think that looks quite good for white , so maybe I'm worrying too much.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #10 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:12 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . W . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I actually haven't really thought this through any more than I did earlier, but I've finally ended the ridiculously long losing streak I was in, so I'm feeling lucky.

P.s. The losing streak was over 10 games long! :sad: :clap: Thank god that's over! XD

Edit: I've gone straight in to another losing streak! orz

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #11 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Posts: 125
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I do not like playing against this response. In my opinion he has made good choices so far in the top left corner. This is the most reasonable move to start with. I haven't decided what I'll do after this though. The normal move is to connect my stones, but it is also possible to leave it as aji instead of taking part of the corner.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #12 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the sequence I expected so nothing new to say.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #13 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Posts: 125
Liked others: 31
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This way is simple and I think I get a good result.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he plays like this his group has a weakness still



[hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get plenty of territory here considering it's his corner to start with. He gets sente though

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #14 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:07 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The more I look at this position the more I like it. White has a base and black doesn't. I'm sure Konfuzed is writing something about how he's getting exactly what he wanted though. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #15 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:13 pm 
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I'm thinking that if he plays to make a base for his group like below, I'll make the approach I wanted on the 6-4 stone. I don't think I need to worry about a pincer now, since I'll only have one weak group.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . a a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure exactly how to approach it though....

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #16 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Posts: 125
Liked others: 31
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He is supposed to move again on top after this to cover weaknesses. Depending on which move he makes it might undermine my 6-4 substantially, so I'm not that happy now that I think about it. Also, if he tenukis, I may not be skilled/experienced enough to take advantage of it well.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #17 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:41 pm 
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White's move works best when there are additional White stones such as the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . Q . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Q . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this diagram, Black would not have enough eye-space on the edge of the board so the top-left Black group would need to run. White could hope to profit from the subsequent fight.

Without any such stones--such as in the game--a safer alternative would be to play this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next, White is threatening a, so Black should probably extend, as shown, letting White extend toward the 6-4 stone or play elsewhere entirely.

In the game, White group has the weakness of Black “b” which threatens Black “c”:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O c . . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, Black should probably first reinforce his top-left group by playing at d or thereabout.

Edit:
Black played at d. :)

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #18 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:51 am 
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Just some thoughts for the moment:

Below are the points that I'm thinking about at the moment. They're general areas rather than specific moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , d . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



a: Black's left hand group still doesn't have a proper base, so an extension on that side is big for either side. If I play around here it forces black to defend and makes territory for me. Comparing this with black getting another extension makes it seem even more appealing, but it also seems like I'm just inviting him to fix his problems. A playing close wouldn't even be sente, and I'm not sure playing further away would put any pressure on the group. I think I probably wont play here. It might be good preperation for "b" though...

b: I feel like the three space jump was an overplay here, so I'm really tempted to just jump in the middle and make hime pay. :twisted: If I could split him it would be catastrophic for black, but I'm not sure I can. Not without creating an even weaker group than his, anyway. I need to try and read this out in more detail, but if I can't cut him, the move at a might be the best way of taking advantage of his weakness after all. (Though not necessarily immediately.)

I'll post about the rest later.

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Post #19 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:15 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Continuing from earlier.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , d . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


C: I said why I was considering "c" earlier, but I didn't consider black attatching on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 7 . . 1 5 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , 3 2 . X . , 8 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black gets a huge corner and lots of influence. (Edit: I see now that this is sente and allows white to follow up at Q10, which looks good for me, but as I said below, black can tenuki.) I considered leaving out :w7: to take the corner, but even if white were strong enough to do that, it doesn't improve the situation much.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O O X . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , O X . X . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ugh! I'm not even going to bother explaining what's wrong with this!

I also don't think an approach is sente, since I can't find any particularly severe follow ups. He'd probably just tenuki if I played further out.

d: This corner is really throwing me off because I'm not really sure how to attack it. It looks like I should be able to waltz in and make loads of territory, but non of my variations work out like that. I'm only partly considering this for now. I also need to know what I can do here so I can decide how I want the rest of the board to turn out. It seems like I can't really stop black from making a lot of influence here if he wants it. (unsurprisingly)

e: I should probably have put this around Q10. The point of this is to stop black from creating a huge moyo. If Black plays here first it will work really well with his O16 stone. I think this is important because I just seem to have the same kind of potential on the rest of the board. I don't see anything wrong with this idea, and it seems pretty urgent, so I think that's what I will do. The only question left is high or low. I feel that when surrounded by other stones high is generally better, since it makes it easier to run in to the centre, and I don't have to worry about being pushed low.

I do really want to attack that black group on the left though...

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 Post subject: Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed
Post #20 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:43 pm 
Lives with ko
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Just a comment for now. Don't know how fast I'll make my next move, because there's some stuff I want to figure out and college can be busy.

This does not surprise me too much I guess. In my experience people trying to figure out what to do against the 6-4 either grab the corner in a hurry or try to slide in a bit with support from the side.


So I have read about this weakness threatening to cut the knight move on web sites and Elementary Go Volume 2 I believe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But that can't happen unless white tenukis again as far as I can tell. What I need to figure out is how White can respond locally, how I'd respond to those responses, and how desirable those sequences are for me.

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