At this point, I was concerned that White was eating my territory too fast. Unfortunately, playing this way allowed him to pretty much secure the life of - this in turn means my sequence in the top right was probably a mistake. My goal of creating thickness up there to exert influence over the whole right side had two fatal flaws: a) it's not very thick, and b) I underestimated White's ability to cripple the potential on the right.
It's not a complete game loser, but it hurts. So, patience being a virtue and all that, I figure securing some real points in the corner both allows more certainty with the reduction at "a", and helps me create some possibilities in the "b" area as I chase Black out. I discarded sequences like this:
Now White lives comfortably in the corner. Sure, it's not very big, but Black has no real points anywhwere, and White's lower position is too hard for me to feel I can gain much value from my new wall.
The immediate and obvious response, but I so really wanted to be more aggressive. The problem was I couldn't see how. I alluded to my thickness in the top right not really being thick, and the reason being is:
After here, I have no way of preventing White from connecting that stone back, which means I have to concede a lot of points to keep my wall - something like the exchange above could be the best I can get out of the position, which frankly feels like a disaster, having just expressed my concerns about losing too much territory already.
So, even though I want to try to split White off, this aji allows White to do things like:
Now with moves like "a" on the cards for White, I'm forced to continue being defensive, and that exchange I tried to give in the corner turns into something truly embarrassing. What's more, and just look ... so sad and pointless.
To my shame, I hadn't considered here. I really thought I was going to have a chance of getting to cut at "a", but this exchange makes it very hard. I figured it was a probe, but after I defend, I'm in a difficult position regarding cutting. I was half tempted to play something crude and terrible like the following:
[go]$$Wcm42 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X a X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 O 6 . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 8 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But ... it's horrible I think. Both "a" and "b" now seem like great moves for White. I was just bitter about losing the cut and coming up with nonsense, so I decided to bite the bullet and suck up a bit more of magicwand pushing me around in the hope that I could gain enough strength to fix the top right in genuine profit later.
[go]$$Wcm44 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I actually expected to be at "a", in which case I was sorely tempted to finally play my cut at "b" and start a big fight, but MW was playing to settle quickly and let me have the stone potentially as endgame (in hindsight, this makes sense. I can't swallow it without giving him equally good endgame into the lower right corner so it's not particularly great endgame for me to have left there), so I played thickly in response.
I'd spent some time reading the fight actually, and had decided I may have to back down anyway, as that upsetting aji in the top right comes into play again:
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . b . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 X O X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X 3 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was envisaging something like this, but the problem is at in my sequence I really badly want both "a" and "b" as I have two groups that are potentially in a lot of danger themselves, meaning I'll probably have to cut off the attack. If I really do kill that side group then great, but the bigger concern is he could exchange "a" before making the cut, and it becomes very hard for me to see how I'm supposed to keep those 4 stones alive. As a result, I figured this whole fight was an overplay, and decided I couldn't start this sort of thing off anyway.
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . a . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Finally, I get sente to do some reducing of my own!
Actually, with some of magicwand's moves later, particularly one that caught me completely off guard, I'm beginning to suspect I may have been better off looking at a different move. This actually starts some serious moyo building, and I could have been better off aiming around "a". The thing is, his response caught me off guard. I'd assessed the following:
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . 1 O . O . . . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . B . . . . 4 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As a means of using the corner aji if he went for the outright kill. The problem is, when White descended, he started to seriously threaten my left side group again, so variations such as the last one start to scare me. It feels too easy now for White to play something like:
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . 4 . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . B . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And create a splitting attack against both groups. As a result, I no longer liked the lower side invasion, and decided to try to do as much as possible on the bottom edge first.
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 4 O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Obviously, it should be relatively easy here to live in the corner or the lower edge, but it wasn't clear to me how best to do it. I figured White would bump, and I could simply pull back at "a" and live, but White's outside thickness felt just too huge to do this. The points potential that White was getting felt like it could be game ending, particularly as I still haven't gotten a large amount of territory, and the reduction by living in this corner didn't feel large enough to offset White's compensation. So, the immediate thing I started trying to do was to extend in the other direction. Sadly, in each case, White seemed to be able to keep the corner (fine, the point of extending the other way was to have the bottom instead) and seal Black in (not fine at all, as the whole point of going for the lower side would be to break White's central influence. Letting White have the corner and the thickness would be game over). The sequences I had were as follows:
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W O . . . . 6 . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . 1 . . 4 5 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 B 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I like this, as White can't now cut Black apart. Black can't save all his stones, but and seem connected. However, what if White resists the other way?
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 5 O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . 1 . . 4 6 7 9 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 B 2 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yay for 2nd line crawly life! Again, losing the corner and giving White this kind of outside seemed doomed to failure, so I picked the point that seemed to be crucial shape-wise to not being sealed in, and played the contact play ( in game) in the hope it would give me some leverage. Now if I got a response I could guarantee central access:
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . 8 4 O . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . 3 . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And if White played to keep them separated, I hoped I could use this as kikashi to create some more aji I could use later whilst still living in the corner.
I'm with topazg on this one. I don't think he needs to complicate the game at all. To the contrary, his objective should be to make sure none of his big groups die. If he accomplishes this, I believe he will win. That said, Magicwand is strong on the attack, so topazg's task will be a difficult one. Let's see what happens.
_________________ Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
Posts: 4511 Location: Chatteris, UK Liked others: 1589 Was liked: 656
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KGS: topazg
Nearly ready magicwand
Well, here goes. I've spent so long reading out variations here, and frankly, I'm worried I've still gotten it badly wrong. This is way more complicated than it looked. The only real options to consider were the two descents, and both have their issues.
So, why this one? To be honest, I nearly played the other - either way, White has a dead group in the corner that needs actively killing, and in both cases Black leaves aji that gives White some useful sente continuations. In this case, White gets plenty of sente endgame approaching from the other side - I still think giving me this is a bit of a mistake, but that probably means I've missed something - magicwand is a bit of an aji-king.
The variation with the other direction seemed fine:
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . . 0 X O . 5 | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . 3 2 . 4 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In this line, it appears I can kill the corner group before either of the adjacent Black groups die, which makes it perfectly good enough and prevents White's useful endgame on the right, but I'm more concerned about this one:
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . 6 X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . 5 . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X 4 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now things are not so fun, and I'll still have to play other moves in the corner to make sure we don't end up with a mysterious and difficult liberty race. Naturally, the next option is to try to resist:
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . 3 2 1 X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O X O X O X . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . 4 X O X O X . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . 7 X 5 O O O 8 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Again, it looks like I win nicely enough, but the aji is pretty severe, and it allows White to use this fact to cut those two stones in the lower middle off, probably in sente. As a result, I feel like I'll have to lose the benefits that was supposed to get me just to maintain his dead group in the corner. So, I've taken the risk that there isn't some clever forced life / ko-life in the corner by playing on the other side in the first instance. White can easily make an L+1 group, but it's my sente, so he dies even if he can play the hane in sente. However, if he takes both hanes in sente, he can make a ko for the corner, so I have to play and hope:
Learn these, and practice some of the basic sequences (+ deviations, challenge yourself to prove them wrong) on Sensei's, a good understanding of corner shapes is really vital to succeeding at Go, and these shapes are not all simple reading at all.
Why descend and not hane?
This is a good question, mostly because the first instinct early on is almost always to hane, as it gives the initial impression of being more severe. Essentially, it's the whole sente/gote issue. The descend pretty much never requires a further defensive move, whereas the hane normally leaves an atari threat that needs protecting against:
[go]$$Bcm65 Completely alive $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 4 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O 6 . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . . . X O . 9 | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . 3 1 2 0 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 8 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Because Black has no real choice than to defend with , White leaves easily as the hane and connect on the other side is sente. FWIW, I included and because while looks like the key eyeshape point, as long as White has the liberty at "a", he lives - it's a useful and reasonably common shape sequence to remember, continuing as follows:
[go]$$Bcm75 Completely alive $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 1 | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O O . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . . . X O 2 X | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . X X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So, in summary, it's always worth looking at the descent whenever the hane is gote, in a lot of yose situations too. It may look slower, but the advantages of not giving the initiative back to your opponent after the initial response normally outweigh the extra line gained with the hane.
Posts: 2402 Location: Tokyo, Japan Liked others: 2341 Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
topazg wrote:
Nearly ready magicwand
Well, here goes. I've spent so long reading out variations here, and frankly, I'm worried I've still gotten it badly wrong. This is way more complicated than it looked. The only real options to consider were the two descents, and both have their issues.
So, why this one? To be honest, I nearly played the other - either way, White has a dead group in the corner that needs actively killing, and in both cases Black leaves aji that gives White some useful sente continuations. In this case, White gets plenty of sente endgame approaching from the other side - I still think giving me this is a bit of a mistake, but that probably means I've missed something - magicwand is a bit of an aji-king.
The variation with the other direction seemed fine:
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . . 0 X O . 5 | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . 3 2 . 4 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In this line, it appears I can kill the corner group before either of the adjacent Black groups die, which makes it perfectly good enough and prevents White's useful endgame on the right, but I'm more concerned about this one:
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . 6 X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . 5 . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X 4 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now things are not so fun, and I'll still have to play other moves in the corner to make sure we don't end up with a mysterious and difficult liberty race. Naturally, the next option is to try to resist:
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . 3 2 1 X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O X O X O X . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . 4 X O X O X . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . 7 X 5 O O O 8 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Again, it looks like I win nicely enough, but the aji is pretty severe, and it allows White to use this fact to cut those two stones in the lower middle off, probably in sente. As a result, I feel like I'll have to lose the benefits that was supposed to get me just to maintain his dead group in the corner. So, I've taken the risk that there isn't some clever forced life / ko-life in the corner by playing on the other side in the first instance. White can easily make an L+1 group, but it's my sente, so he dies even if he can play the hane in sente. However, if he takes both hanes in sente, he can make a ko for the corner, so I have to play and hope:
[go]$$Bcm75 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O X . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . X X O | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O 9 . X O O . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . 7 8 X O . 5 | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X 3 6 X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W 4 1 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And so on. If he can do this, and I can't find a good refutation, I have to return to my original idea of descending on the other side.
...
Obs:
Just a comment on a couple of Topazg's variations.
Here White is actually helpless due to lack of liberties. T gives up to in his variation but would end all resistance. This is a standard tesuji that we should always be on the lookout for.
[go]$$Bc Tesuji $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O 7 6 X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . 5 . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X 4 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now in fact, White could continue as below and cut off the two Black stones (Black plays at "a" after ), but Black will end up with counter-play against the marked White stones or else get sente to play elsewhere so this is a good result.
[go]$$Bc Tesuji $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . W . W . W . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . 9 3 . X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O 0 O 1 O X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X 6 4 X 2 a X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . 8 7 5 X O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And here T shows Black answering with a play at "a" after which the push at "b" causes some concern. However, there is no reason to play so close. Black can play and there are no worries. In fact Black could answer with "b" and there is no cut. Note that with the marked stone waiting, Black can keep giving way along the bottom (against "c" for example) since White would just be helping Black connect up his stones.
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O X . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . X X O | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O O . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . B . . . 3 . X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X a b X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . 2 W . 1 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
_________________ Dave Sigaty "Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..." - Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ok, let's do this. I think I've worked out how to deal with that hane (basically just let him crawl along the first line if he has to, it'll connect up my lower middle stones and threaten all his lower right stones to a counter attack, so it has to be good for me even if he managed to connect to G2)
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X 6 . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If White plays here he saves his stone and potentially kills two of mine, and now I get to clamp his stone on the top. All in all, this is big, and it's time to grab some big points (also, this makes that thickness I was disappointed about a bit thicker again
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X 6 . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That ... surprises me. As far as I can see, the big swinging point for the game could well be who can exercise the best control of the middle, and I would have thought he would want to use the weakness of my group over here to stake his claim to the centre in as big and bold a way as possible. However, this fixes some of my shape issues, pushes me into the middle, and threatens to cut on only one side (the side I'd, frankly, rather like him to cut). I guess I'm missing something :S
perhaps magicwand worries that b12 would fix the cut in sente?
Hmm, perhaps. However, to me it seems he is simply trying to make sure topazg's group does not have more than one eye locally. I suspect Magicwand believes that the Black group will not be able to survive in the center of the board. Personally, I worry that Magicwand might be right. That is why I was very surprised by topazg's 67th move. I think he should have considered reinforcing his group on the left--perhaps at at "a," for example:
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The middle's where I want to go. He can't kill more than one of those stones on the left, and if I can neutralise this area, I gain a couple of new fun moves:
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X . . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I disagree with his exchange on top left corner. IMO He should have played 3-3 point instead. his 63 was too small.. or less urgent. I wanted to play there but didnt because it was too small of gote. You should think like your opponent. if you opponent is not playing because of small gote..it is not urgent. my exchange on the bottom is also bad..and i knew it was bad. I played it because my opponent might play elsewhere and even if he play correctly i wouldnt lose toomuch.
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . X 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 0 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . X 6 . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
70 attack is forceful attack. white played patiently thick moves giving black all the points. now his group is in danger. i think his middle influence will be reased due to his weak group.
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topazg
- this in turn means my sequence in the top right was probably a mistake. My goal of creating thickness up there to exert influence over the whole right side had two fatal flaws: a) it's not very thick, and b) I underestimated White's ability to cripple the potential on the right.
here, I have no way of preventing White from connecting that stone back, which means I have to concede a lot of points to keep my wall - something like the exchange above could be the best I can get out of the position, which frankly feels like a disaster, having just expressed my concerns about losing too much territory already.
and 
just look ... so sad and pointless.
to be at "a", in which case I was sorely tempted to finally play my cut at "b" and start a big fight, but MW was playing to settle quickly and let me have the stone potentially as endgame (in hindsight, this makes sense. I can't swallow it without giving him equally good endgame into the lower right corner so it's not particularly great endgame for me to have left there), so I played thickly in response.
is important here, as it means "a" now kills the two stones, so Black has to protect those before forming any kind of useful attack
in my sequence I really badly want both "a" and "b" as I have two groups that are potentially in a lot of danger themselves, meaning I'll probably have to cut off the attack. If I really do kill that side group then great, but the bigger concern is he could exchange "a" before making the cut, and it becomes very hard for me to see how I'm supposed to keep those 4 stones alive. As a result, I figured this whole fight was an overplay, and decided I couldn't start this sort of thing off anyway.
actually starts some serious moyo building, and I could have been better off aiming around "a". The thing is, his response caught me off guard. I'd assessed the following:
and 
seem connected. However, what if White resists the other way?
is a bit of a mistake, but that probably means I've missed something - magicwand is a bit of an aji-king.
was supposed to get me just to maintain his dead group in the corner. So, I've taken the risk that there isn't some clever forced life / ko-life in the corner by playing on the other side in the first instance. White can easily make an L+1 group, but it's my sente, so he dies even if he can play the hane in sente. However, if he takes both hanes in sente, he can make a ko for the corner, so I have to play and hope:
, White leaves easily as the hane and connect on the other side is sente. FWIW, I included 
and 
because while 
in his variation but 
would end all resistance. This is a standard tesuji that we should always be on the lookout for.
), but Black will end up with counter-play against the marked White stones or else get sente to play elsewhere so this is a good result.
with a play at "a" after which the push at "b" causes some concern. However, there is no reason to play so close. Black can play 
and there are no worries. In fact Black could answer 
