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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #121 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:07 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe that's the mistake I was looking for? Certainly, I feel a bit more hopeful now! Need to read some more. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #122 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:10 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 5 . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why is there no face for "headache"?? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #123 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:20 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, a headache face would definitely fit in some of the Malkovich games. So much miai, so many liberties ... *read, read, read*

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #124 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Black: 2 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 7 . O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #125 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:41 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O 8 O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not actually sure what lovelove's plan is here. We're only a handful of moves from the end of this fight (10-14, I think), and there are many fewer variations left to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #126 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | 9 O O O X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #127 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:48 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


SHOW ME YOUR EYES! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #128 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm111 Black: 4 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 1 O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #129 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:57 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm111 Black: 4 White: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | 4 X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | C X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I win this by 1 liberty. At least, that's what I read.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #130 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm111 Black: 4 White: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 5 X . O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O O X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O O X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #131 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:02 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm115 Black: 4 White: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 1 X 7 O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | 3 X 5 X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X W W X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | 2 X X W W W X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X W W W 6 X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 W W X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | W W X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | W 8 W X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | W W W W X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Can you see a different path?

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #132 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm115 Black: 4 White: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O X . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 1 X 7 O O X . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | 3 X 5 X O X O . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X W W X . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | 2 X X W W W X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X W W W 6 X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 W W X . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | W W X X X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | W 8 W X . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | W W W W X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Can you see a different path?

Okay thanks, I resign.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #133 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:11 pm 
Gosei

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Thank you very much for the game. You definitely pushed my reading far beyond where I normally take it.

I need to go back and read the hidden comments. There are definitely a few places where I felt I had no idea, strategically, where I should be playing on the board.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #134 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:41 pm 
Gosei

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I have a question about the following position, for any observers that might still be reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lovelove calls R14 a mistake. Why? Also, where should I have played, if not at R14? The hane underneath? A direct cut? EdLee suggests maybe R13 ... anyone care to discuss?

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #135 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
I have a question about the following position, for any observers that might still be reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lovelove calls R14 a mistake. Why? Also, where should I have played, if not at R14? The hane underneath? A direct cut? EdLee suggests maybe R13 ... anyone care to discuss?

what you played is correct.
but do you know why it is correct?
It will take many many diag and time to show you all variations..
I will leave them for your study.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #136 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:24 pm 
Tengen
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FWIW, R14 was my move too, particularly here.

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Post #137 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:51 am 
Honinbo
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Marcus,
A few ideas. B could turn at (a).
Locally at the upper right corner, your :b26: clamp at (b) leads to a messy fight (as Magicwand noted);
B could also keima to (c) and wait.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . a O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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