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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #81 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:02 pm 
Lives with ko
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Rank: KGS 5 kyu
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Universal go server handle: DeFlow
What a beautiful move, Skydyr. =]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, I have thought long and hard about the different options, an outside hane and nobi, here.

The hane will give me more territory, but invite the crosscut. I do not fear the fight that could come, what I fear is that he will sacrifice the cross-cutting stone to make shape in sente.

The nobi is solid, and I still undercut white's position on the top.

I chose the nobi because I don't want him to make shape here in sente. The wall he can get by leaning is misplaced, my group on the middle left will diminish it's influence. I extend to the left instead of to the right to deny him perfect shape.

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #82 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:55 pm 
Oza

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Are you being serious or joking?

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #83 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:24 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2493
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #84 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Rank: KGS 5 kyu
KGS: DefLow
Universal go server handle: DeFlow
I was being serious. It was very hard for me to decide between the hane and the nobi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #85 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:17 am 
Oza

Posts: 2493
Location: DC
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've got to block at some point... Not sure what my opponent will do though.

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #86 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:01 pm 
Lives with ko
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Rank: KGS 5 kyu
KGS: DefLow
Universal go server handle: DeFlow
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since I have sente and the position is relatively stable, it is time to evaluate the position.

Weak groups:
There are no real weak groups on the board.
The aji at K2 is very annoying however, and my lower left corner could become weak if he plays a move in the corner and I don't go back and fix.

Bank:
If we're talking about cash, white's upper left is worth about 35 points if he plays one more move there. His lower left is about 20 points and his influence on the right can make 20 points easily. Let's say he has about 75 points.

I have 15 points on the lower left, 8 points on the lower right. Furthermore my top right is worth about 30 points. My left is worth about 10 points. Let's say I have 60 points.

This means I am behind by about ten points.

The last moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was not so unhappy with the 61-67 exchange. I think his lower left is overconcentrated. My left group is almost as powerful as his left group. Maybe my 69 should have been around 70, because it is a perfect point for him. However, a play of him at 69 would also be very big, so this exchange seems even. Moves 71 to 76 definately favor me. His wall is not facing towards a potentially weak group, nor will it be easy for him to make center territory. However I am not sure what I would have played as 72 for white.

Potentially harmful or joyful points
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . d . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . a O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . a X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I maintain sente, I would like to play at a to take some corner points and make sure my corner and middle group are absolutely safe. After that I can play freely with no concern.

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #87 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:55 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2493
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 8 . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #88 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:33 pm 
Beginner

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Rank: KGS 7k
KGS: zogar
I'm not sure white is overconcentrated in the lower left as stated Deflow. Overconcentrated is when there are stones who are inefficient and could be removed or moved elsewhere to have more impact on the game. I don't see any such stone in white's shape, each seems to be necessary or useful.

Also i'm doubtful about white's moves in the top, Black 77 seems far too good to have ever been allowed. Shouldn't white attack the lower black group before settling the border with the top right ?


This post by zogleheros was liked by: The Intrepid
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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #89 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:18 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 162
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 29
Rank: KGS 5 kyu
KGS: DefLow
Universal go server handle: DeFlow
Posting from my mobile phone like a boss.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 8 . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #90 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:56 am 
Oza

Posts: 2493
Location: DC
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Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 8 . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . . 0 , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #91 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:06 pm 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 162
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Rank: KGS 5 kyu
KGS: DefLow
Universal go server handle: DeFlow
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 3 1 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 8 . . . O 4 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . B 0 , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Could you update the diagram for once? Still posting from on the road.

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #92 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:28 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2493
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . O O O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . |
$$ | . 1 O , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #93 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:03 pm 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Hmm... I think I'm kind of burnt out on turn based games, as I'm playing this like a blitz game. Do you mind if we put this on hold for a few weeks?

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #94 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Posts: 162
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Rank: KGS 5 kyu
KGS: DefLow
Universal go server handle: DeFlow
It's okay! If you want to agree on the maximum of one turn per day, we could also do that.

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #95 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:34 am 
Oza

Posts: 2493
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Do you feel like picking this game back up? I'm up to it if you are.

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 Post subject: Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Post #96 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:43 am 
Oza

Posts: 2493
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
So, I spoke to DeFlow and we're abandoning this game, possibly to have a rematch later.

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