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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #201 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm181 Prisoners: Black 3 White 6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | 8 O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

emeraldemon wrote:
@lovelove:
Who do you think is winning right now? By how much?

The game seems close than I thought. I tend to be optimistic in the middlegame... but still think I'm winning by a small margin.

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #202 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:52 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm181
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . 9 X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If W connects, it's the same as my general nonsense line given earlier. A more sensible continuation for W than the one earlier is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | 6 O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | 5 O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | 4 O 7 X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | 2 1 X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 3 5 X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O 4 O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | O O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | 2 O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | O O 1 X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | O X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X 8 X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 7 O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think W has to connect at 4. I haven't decided if I'll continue at 5 above, but I've given the line for reference. 6 is big after my connection. 7 and 8 are miai, and as I explained I think 7 is bigger. Conintuing on from here:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O X X X X X X X O 7 |
$$ | . . . O O O O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | O O X O X O . . . O 6 3 O . O , O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X X X X . . 4 5 O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | O O X X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | O X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X 2 . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W could consider answering 3 above, for example at 5. But then I've gained 2 points in sente compared a W play at 1. So I get to connect underneath in sente. Then the biggest moves are:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O X X X X X X X O 1 |
$$ | . . . O O O O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | O O X O X O . . . O O 2 O . O , O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X X X X . . O X O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | O O X X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | O X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O 4 X 5 . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X O . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O . O . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's now possible to count quite accurately from here, and B is ahead by lots if this happens.

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #203 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:56 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm181
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | 0 O . X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #204 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:33 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm191
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | O O . X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | 1 X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W's move was better than in the previous diagrams by me, but it's equivalent to me having ataried at B10 for move 185 and getting an answer. (I didn't play that as I wasn't sure I'd get an answer.)

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #205 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:11 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm191
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | . O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | O O . X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 2 O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #206 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm191
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . X O O X X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O O . O O X O O . O O . |
$$ | 4 O X O X O . . . O . . O . O , O X X |
$$ | 3 O O X X X X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . O O X X X X X O X . X X X |
$$ | O O . X . X O . O . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X . . O O O . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | O O O X O O . . X X O . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X X X . X X X X X O . . O . X X . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . O O . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . , O X X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O X . . O . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O O . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #207 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:05 am 
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I resign, thank you for the game.

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This post by lovelove was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, p2501
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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #208 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:42 am 
Judan

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:clap: :clap:

Well played both, was fun to watch.

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #209 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:08 am 
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Thank you lovelove - it was an incredibly difficult game. I spent many hours on my moves.

You play with a very light style, which is in stark contrast to my heavy, fighting-based approach. Moves like W 74 would never occur to me. (I think it's a good move.) I probably spent 2-3 hours on 75, before settling on the attachment I played. There was a huge number of possibilities for both our moves around this point.


This post by drmwc was liked by: p2501
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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #210 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:10 am 
Tengen
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dramc: let me know if you want a game with me.

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #211 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:52 am 
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MW - happy to.

I bought a house during the course of this game, and I'm in the process of moving in. So it may work best if we start after the move. (I was renting a furnished flat, and I'm moving to a house I bought. So I have period of overlap when I have access to both places to allow me to buy some beds and stuff for the new place.)

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #212 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Having read all the comments now, including re-reading my own, one thing that amazes me is my ability to make 3 or 4 typos per sentence. This was something I'm aware of, but re-reading with fresh eyes bought it home.

Thank God for my access to proff readers at work!

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #213 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:11 pm 
Oza
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Thank you both! A very exciting game to watch.

Can't wait for the grudge match...

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #214 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:27 pm 
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drmwc wrote:
Having read all the comments now, including re-reading my own, one thing that amazes me is my ability to make 3 or 4 typos per sentence. This was something I'm aware of, but re-reading with fresh eyes bought it home.

Thank God for my access to proff readers at work!

If you use Google Chrome, it has a built-in proofreader. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #215 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Hi,

Here's a game record of the game. I also transcribed some of the comments (for more detailed commentary you'll have to refer to the original posts). Hope it's useful to somebody.



Attachments:
#201.sgf [19.84 KiB]
Downloaded 730 times

This post by logan was liked by 3 people: drmwc, gasana, jts
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 Post subject: Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Post #216 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:34 am 
Judan

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Prodigious wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
lovelove said [too many nested quotes for the forum software]
I don't know if this is joseki, but my cut (D4) was a natural move, and the white stone on low side is in a good position.
EdLee wrote:
Seems highly unlikely that this could be joseki, with Black making the broken shape in White, in sente...
but let's double check and find out...


I think Ed is too blindly applying his broken shape detector and it is far from clear this result is good for black; in fact probably I prefer white. Although it is true white has blighted his f3 stones, it is not dead yet, whereas black has completely killed his own 2 stones in the corner, making white totally alive with about 10 points of territory. Black's wall is not alive and could even be a weak group, and there is a cut at e5 to deal with. The key question is how weak is black's wall versus white's k3 stone: if black plays a checking extension at m3 then white can g4 or so which helps k3 and weakens the wall, if black h3 then white is happy to n3. I find it difficult to know how to continue as black.

Yeah, agreed. I'm pretty sure this result favors white and that black D5 was a mistake. Either D4 or E3 would probably have been better, I prefer E3.


An Younggil 8p commented on this shape in the latest article on gogameguru.com. He says this local result is indeed good for white and black should play either of those moves prodigious suggested.

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