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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #21 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:33 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 2 1 O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I read this move previously. Everything is fine ... unless I misread in a BIG way, but I don't think so.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #22 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:58 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 2 1 O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . 3 . 5 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . 4 . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope! :mrgreen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 2 1 O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O 4 3 . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . 5 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Unhidden.
Bingo!

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #23 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:22 am 
Gosei

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Now I understand why Intrepid said W is well behind. Somehow I don't think he meant this, though

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #24 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:28 am 
Oza

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The Intrepid wrote:
The second area is in the middle left, where I have a remote chance to cut off the big Black group in the middle while poking out it's potential second eye.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O B O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O B B O B O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O B B B B O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O B . B O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . B B O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O B M . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O B B B O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O B O B B O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . B B B O . . O O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . B O B O . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . B . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . B O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O . O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm kind of baffled by how this is even possible. Black has one eye and miai for a second eye at L12 and H8, the connection to the rest of black's stones notwithstanding.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #25 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:46 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 2 1 O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . 3 . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #26 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:51 pm 
Judan

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Why did black have 9 stones?

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #27 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Because I keep winning with 9 stones, why else? (We'll probably move onto 8 stones after this game, though.)

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #28 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:31 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . 1 . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . 2 . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Turns out I did miss a move. :b2: captures a few stones. Suddenly, Uberdude's question makes quite a bit of sense. :D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . 2 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . 1 . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What I had been looking at was this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . . 2 X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . 1 . . . 3 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A bad misread on my part. Now I won't be able to pose Black with too many problems. But okay, "never give up, never surrender," so let's see if I can miraculously capture the huge Black group in the middle. Afterward, I'll try to live inside Black's territory on the right. If both of these attempts fail (which I expect them to), then I'll resign with clear conscience that I've exhausted all my chances.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #29 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . 1 . 3 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . 2 . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #30 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . 1 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 2 X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
First stage of trying to cut off the group.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #31 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:01 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . 1 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . 3 X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 2 X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #32 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After this move, I'll start playing moves in other areas. The hope is to lull Black into sleep. I want to accomplish the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . W O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X W O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O W . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #33 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:43 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #34 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . 2 X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black's move loses a point but removes all the aji, so is better, given Black's lead.

OK, my last chance is to try to live on the right side. Before making the attempt, I'll play the big 6.5 move on the left. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #35 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:52 am 
Honinbo

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White missed his opportunity to resign.

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu May 02, 2013 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #36 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:35 am 
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Let's make a quick calculation of how much the move is worth.

1). A simplified calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | 4 2 X . X
$$ | 5 1 X O X
$$ | 3 M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score W = (+5) + (-2) = (+3)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | C C X . X
$$ | 3 C X O X
$$ | 5 1 O X X
$$ | 4 2 O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score B = (+2) + (-5) = (-3) (We could have gotten this result by seeing that White and Black stones are symmetrically distributed.)

Thus, the move is worth approximately Score Difference = Score W - Score B = (+3) - (-3) = (+6)

2). A more rigorous calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . 2 X . X
$$ | . 1 X O X
$$ | 3 . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
This ends in gote for Black. Thus, both players have 50% to play in the area first.

If White plays first, the result is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | 2 C X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | 3 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WW = +4

If Black plays first, the play is again gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | . O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Thus, each player again has 50% chance to be the first one to play the followup.

If White plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBW = +3

If Black plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O 2 O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBB = +2

Therefore, Score W = 50% * Score WW + 50% * [50% * Score WBW + 50% * Score Score WBB] = (+2) + 0.5 * [(+1.5) + (+1)] = +3.25

By symmetry, Score B = (-1) * Score W = -3.25

Therefore, Score Difference = Score W - Score B = +6.5

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #37 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:55 am 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
@Bill Spight
Bill Spight wrote:
White missed his opportunity to resign.

Could you clarify this? What were you looking at as the opportunity to resign?

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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #38 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:06 am 
Honinbo

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The Intrepid wrote:
Let's make a quick calculation of how much the move is worth.

1). A simplified calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | 4 2 X . X
$$ | 5 1 X O X
$$ | 3 M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score W = (+5) + (-2) = (+3)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | C C X . X
$$ | 3 C X O X
$$ | 5 1 O X X
$$ | 4 2 O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score B = (+2) + (-5) = (-3) (We could have gotten this result by seeing that White and Black stones are symmetrically distributed.)

Thus, the move is worth approximately Score Difference = Score W - Score B = (+3) - (-3) = (+6)

2). A more rigorous calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . 2 X . X
$$ | . 1 X O X
$$ | 3 . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
This ends in gote for Black. Thus, both players have 50% to play in the area first.

If White plays first, the result is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | 2 C X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | 3 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WW = +4

If Black plays first, the play is again gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | . O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Thus, each player again has 50% chance to be the first one to play the followup.

If White plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBW = +3

If Black plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O 2 O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBB = +2

Therefore, Score W = 50% * Score WW + 50% * [50% * Score WBW + 50% * Score Score WBB] = (+2) + 0.5 * [(+1.5) + (+1)] = +3.25

By symmetry, Score B = (-1) * Score W = -3.25

Therefore, Score Difference = Score W - Score B = +6.5[/hide]


You were right the first time. :)

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | . O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Thus, each player again has 50% chance to be the first one to play the followup.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O 2 O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]


In this position :b1: is sente. We therefore do not say that each player has a 50% chance of playing here first. We regard :b1: as Black's privilege.

This position is a bit tricky, however, because :b1: in the next diagram is ambiguous between gote and sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | 2 O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]


That is, it is not sente, but :w2: gains as much as :b1:. Therefore White can play :w2:, despite Black's privilege. (The point being that if White plays :w2:, Black does not get the chance to raise the local temperature by playing there himself.) Anyway, the exchange, :b1: - :w2: does not change the local count. :)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu May 02, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #39 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:12 am 
Honinbo

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skydyr wrote:
@Bill Spight
Bill Spight wrote:
White missed his opportunity to resign.

Could you clarify this? What were you looking at as the opportunity to resign?


There is a phrase, "looking for a place to resign", which is used when the player who is behind takes desperate measures which, assuming correct play by the opponent, are doomed to fail. White has made a sequence of four plays ( :w1: - :w7:) which could be called looking for a place to resign. Then when Black administered the coup de grace ( :b8:), White did not resign.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 5 4 O O . 2 1 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . 6 . 8 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . 7 . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O 3 O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose that The Intrepid is playing on for the sake of the audience, but drishti deserve a round of applause. :)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu May 02, 2013 3:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Post #40 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:18 am 
Lives in gote

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Quote:
You were right the first time. :)
Can I look at that hide tag now or only later?

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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