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#217 EdLee vs. Amelia http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8425 |
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Author: | Amelia [ Thu May 23, 2013 5:39 am ] |
Post subject: | #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
Ed has agreed to play an even game with me despite our difference in strength. I'm very thankful for this chance to learn. Nigiri Komi: 6,5 Scoring: Japanese
I will make it open book and open database (though I don't have a database, but I'll allow myself to learn about new josekis) I plan to direct my studies to the phase of the game, i.e. while in the opening I may study the opening with pro game commentaries, and read about counting and endgame while in yose. This way I can calmly try to apply some of the new ideas and concepts that I learn and see what comes out of it. I might make long commentaries full of nonsense, forgive me in advance ^^° |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu May 23, 2013 9:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
Don't worry, Amelia. He's a pushover. |
Author: | EdLee [ Thu May 23, 2013 3:57 pm ] |
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Nigiri: . Now let's see... You had 4 , so you go first. |
Author: | Amelia [ Thu May 23, 2013 10:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
I hope you have fun
I have several plans for the opening, but I'll wait for white 2 before I get into details. |
Author: | EdLee [ Fri May 24, 2013 1:52 am ] |
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Good game.
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Author: | Amelia [ Fri May 24, 2013 12:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
My one and only fuseki litterature since I started playing go is Opening Theory Made Easy. My usual plan is to stick to basics (corners, sides, extend from shimari, make boxes, etc.) then fight it off in the middle game. It frequently looks like that:
A week ago though, I started reading "learning from pro games" and learned about lots of other openings. I want to try something new. Hence 3-4 in the other direction. The continuations I'm considering:
(Of course, EdLee has other options than this 4). I don't want to play A, it looks a bit boring. B is the chinese fuseki, which normally leads pretty fast to some mean fights around A. C can lead to the Kobayashi fuseki (in which case invasions on the bottom or around A are also quite probable) D would try to develop the top instead E is less usual, it's the move that is used in a game I currently study between Chen Yaoye and Kong Jie. The reason for this move is that the bottom and top are considered miai, so black tries to get in white's way on the left side. If white plays a pincer, black then takes the corner.
White is happy to get a wall facing his lower left corner, black takes solid points. To me this looks better for white than for black but in the game, white prefered to play like this:
However I suspect EdLee would rather pincer, and could I deal with that white wall? It makes it easy for white to create a big moyo. Pretty much all of those moves are scary. I can avoid some complications by closing the shimari but it's less fun. So I haven't decided. I'm probably going to go for the fun. Ed can also play W4 at 3-4 himself. This will limit my possibilities regarding the direction of an approach move, but many of the options above remain playable. He might also want to approach my corner immediately, in which case A-D look interesting:
A pincer a bit wide would work well with my stone in the upper corner. We will see. |
Author: | EdLee [ Fri May 24, 2013 7:56 pm ] |
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Author: | Amelia [ Fri May 24, 2013 9:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
So I'm going for this:
I've never played a named fuseki in my life and I usually go for calm, territorial strategies. This is more or less all I know about this opening: http://senseis.xmp.net/?KobayashiFuseki Depending on whether or not white allows it, I will further my studies about it. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Fri May 24, 2013 11:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
Amelia wrote: To me this looks better for white than for black but in the game, white prefered to play like this: I'm not saying this as an absolute truth, but I personally would be unforcortable as white in upper diagram: all my stones are on left side, and IMHO a stone is needed there still soon - now the space in the middle is too wide, especialy considering all kinds of stupid aji in the top corner wall. But if white adds a stone, black gets sente, and will have stones on two sides of board (or three if plays on the bottom) compared to white on one side only - much faster development. |
Author: | EdLee [ Sat May 25, 2013 12:39 am ] |
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Author: | EdLee [ Sat May 25, 2013 12:50 am ] |
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Variation: Wikipedia -- Sensei's Library -- Forum thread --
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Author: | Amelia [ Sat May 25, 2013 8:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
Ed thwarted plan A, so let's go for plan B ^^ The point of the Kobayashi opening that I considered is to make the game a fighting game. In this position I can still attack white, however how I would benefit from it is less clear. White has the right side, the bottom and the corner as potential areas to settle and I can't defend all. Some possibilities: One basic joseki that I use a lot is this one:
White makes himself comfortable on the right side. It limits the potential of my hoshi stone, so I'm not thrilled. What about a pincer?
The one point pincer makes white run more, but white can counter-attack the pincer stone, which again makes black prospects on that side much smaller. The point of the three points pincer that I played is to pressure white a bit and at the same time develop a potential black area on the top right. It's another move that I saw in the Chen Yaoye - Kong Jie game that I mentioned earlier and I think it can work well in this position. Possible developments:
I get territory and sente, and develop towards my approach move earlier on the bottom left. White gets thickness.
White gets the corner. Again I have potential on the bottom and sente. I still need to double check this one though. Both of those are fine with me. Next I can play another move on the bottom, for example H4, and white then should probably start to worry about his bottom left stone. Let's see what Ed thinks about it. |
Author: | EdLee [ Sat May 25, 2013 1:02 pm ] |
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Author: | EdLee [ Sat May 25, 2013 1:03 pm ] |
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Interesting that the right side reverted back to a Chinese opening. |
Author: | Phoenix [ Sat May 25, 2013 9:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
Sparked by EdLee's comment on the Chinese opening...
This won't come as a surprise to anyone, but this is a transposed diagram of a dynamic opening. White invades the Chinese formation immediately at . Black disregards this, considering it already pincered and approaches at , perhaps as a probe. White does not care for it and presses with . The onus is now on both players to justify their tenuki. Will Black double approach around a? Or will he respond in the lower right corner around b or c? I for one would dislike the stone at so easily losing its purpose as a pincer, so would double approach. Let's see what Amelia thinks. |
Author: | Unusedname [ Sat May 25, 2013 9:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
@Phoenix If Black double approaches can't white kill the 3-4 stone? Then suddenly black's pincer is too close to thickness and will be attacked. While the 4-4 stone can survive a double approach, even a triple approach. Regardless of that, if both the 3-4 black stone and the 4-4 white stone die, then black has one bad move too close to thickness where as white has no bad moves. I think. |
Author: | Amelia [ Sun May 26, 2013 1:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
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Author: | imaponuki [ Sun May 26, 2013 1:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
According to EidoGo, is good for black, if he knew how to punish it. The second variation would get pretty messy for DDK though.
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Author: | TIM82 [ Sun May 26, 2013 8:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Taking back a few moves, pincers weren't the only option. To me the most intuitive continuation is 1-4 below, then either continuing with A if you are sure of getting sente (and use sente to play B), or just directly B. White seems quite busy: bottom right three stones would like to get some strengthtening, but it seems advisable to respond to the double approach in bottom left first, and black may well take sente from there to harrass the three stones in bottom right... Disclaimer: above contains no book knowledge, just opinions.
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Author: | Phoenix [ Sun May 26, 2013 9:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia |
Unusedname wrote: @Phoenix If Black double approaches can't white kill the 3-4 stone? Then suddenly black's pincer is too close to thickness and will be attacked. While the 4-4 stone can survive a double approach, even a triple approach. Regardless of that, if both the 3-4 black stone and the 4-4 white stone die, then black has one bad move too close to thickness where as white has no bad moves. I think. I felt like the double approach would be equivalent in this case, though this isn't backed up by much analysis. Now that you mention it however the lone Black stone in the middle of the right side is vulnerable, which would make the corner-for-double-approach exchange not so good. And Black doesn't have such an effect for his extra approach stone. White could still extend down the left side or at the top as miai after the bottom-left corner is resolved. That combined with the fact that White seems to be setting the pace this early is making me revise my opinion. Besides Black's approach stone in the lower left is working, as White will need to answer at some point. TIM82 wrote: Taking back a few moves, pincers weren't the only option. To me the most intuitive continuation is 1-4 below, then either continuing with A if you are sure of getting sente (and use sente to play B), or just directly B. White seems quite busy: bottom right three stones would like to get some strengthtening, but it seems advisable to respond to the double approach in bottom left first, and black may well take sente from there to harrass the three stones in bottom right... Disclaimer: above contains no book knowledge, just opinions.
Unfortunately for Black, White has a lot of options to try and take sente in this sequence. However if you consider the difference in rank, Amelia could indeed use this to build influence on the bottom while White expands on the right. The difference being Black has an approach stone already in place in the bottom-left, and the option of extending along the right side.
Here White takes sente with (if at , White plays at ), then attaches at to make Black overconcentrated.
After the tsuke-osae joseki, Black can take sente to extend to . This move of course restrains White's influence on the right side, and also lessens the value of an approach around a as well as a san-san invasion. I like Black in this case despite the result on the bottom ( can be under instead, but this helps if White tries to build a moyo on the left later). I would consider attaching at b miai with an extension along the top. Like always, there are a lot of variations to take into account as well. Of course the game has already taken a different course. I'm fairly sure EdLee will opt for the simple, effective method that is building a wall to attack the lone stone on the right. The bottom line is that if she can keep her groups safe, a battle of influence and territory offers more of a chance against EdLee than, say, a slugfest. |
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