51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

topazg · **#21**

Extra response: Oh, you mean this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 5 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know, this feels to defeat the purpose of pincering. Letting Black connect this way at G17 is really big. White could play for a ko, but I capture first and you know what they say about ko threats in the opening. Who knows, it's up to you White

prokofiev · **#22**

topazg wrote:

Extra response: Oh, you mean this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 5 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry, I jumbled your move sequence in my head and thought blocking at C16 after you entered at 3-3 was available. :oops:

(Furthermore I guess that wouldn't have been white's *next* move in any case.)

That said, isn't there some option to form a wall facing D10? Looking in Kogo's (is this allowed in an open game in which you might not want to use Joseki dictionaries? :lol:

) gives a long variation starting with 4 below to go for influence facing both ways, but maybe that doesn't make sense here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

prokofiev · **#23**

Maybe my real question:

What's the "direction of play" type answer for when you make a double approach, or which reply you choose to a double approach?

Among kyus it seems essentially to be a move that goes for complications rather than a joseki everyone knows and/or a scare-tactic by a stronger player. Among pros (or stronger players who aren't playing the double approach for novelty), when is the double approach chosen instead of the 3-3 (and some similar question about responses). That is: does the double approach give the approacher the ability to choose which side, but at a slight local loss compared to just taking the 3-3 or some such (or am I being overly reductive)?

Zwergesel · **#24**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19-22 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X 2 O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . O 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts
I've seen this before – I think on Sensei's Library! It starts a huge fight that ends with me getting influence and black getting the corner! I don't remember all the details, but I've got a general idea of how it's supposed to look at the end of the sequence! Since I don't want black to get the corner facing the left side, I will need to start this fight and see if my reading is any good

By the way, topazg, is using joseki dictionaries or Sensei's Library allowed?

explo wrote:

A question for both players: Has any of you considered 18 at C17? It's possible when white has a pincer on both sides.

Yes, I thought about that. It might be good for me, but it looks so strange that I thought I'd play something a bit more normal! Maybe I shouldn't have!

The way I know it, black plays :b19:

and I cut through (don't know which side is better). Then the fighting starts!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . X . O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

prokofiev wrote:

Shouldn't white block the other way what with D10 and all, or are there considerations I don't know about when there's a double approach (e.g. is blocking this way markedly better locally with the double approach or some such ?)

Etiquette query: Was is okay unhidden or does it come too close to suggesting a move? (In any case I'm weaker than you two, so presumably nothing has been spoiled!)

I was hoping that black would jump into the corner with C17 immediately. That allows me to block at C16, which is the better direction! The way he played it though, I cannot block at C16 unless I ignore G16 which looks pretty awkward.

topazg wrote:

I think with :w18:

he's sort of committed himself a bit. Had he contacted the other side, I was still intending on keeping the left, but it's rather better for him at the top

I thought that contacting the other side hurt my D10 and C6 stone too much. If I hadn't played D10 I could jump into the corner, but I didn't want to leave D10 and C6 alone!

Zwergesel · **#25**

prokofiev wrote:

That said, isn't there some option to form a wall facing D10? Looking in Kogo's (is this allowed in an open game in which you might not want to use Joseki dictionaries? :lol:

) gives a long variation starting with 4 below to go for influence facing both ways, but maybe that doesn't make sense here.

Heh, lots of posts while I copy&pasted together diagrams and quotes!
I see you found the sequence that I chose to play! That means I remember it correctly!
Let's see how that turns out!

Chew Terr · **#26**

Hey, minor request: Going forwards, could ya'all please put diagrams into hide tags if they're not actually moves, please? That would make it harder to confuse diagrams under discussion with the actual moves.

topazg · **#27**

@Chew: Sure

@Zwergesel: Yeah, dictionary and other references allowed

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 23-32 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 7 X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 5 2 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 8 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm33 Move 33-42 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Move 43-45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X X O O . , . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Zwergesel · **#28**

Thanks for allowing references! This allowed me to identify what I think is a mistake in your sequence!

Let's see ... I follow until move :b35:

, but

goes here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm35 Move 35+36 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O B B X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O B O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B W B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W W B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tactics and Variations

If I don't have a stone at D10 I can't play like this, because of the following tesuji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Black captures first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, with a stone at D10, I can escape that net and then the black stones on top are captured!
Black therefore should have played like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm35 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 1 . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This sequence gives me sente which makes it much better for me than what topazg suggested!

topazg · **#29**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, not as good as I'd hoped, but I'm still happy enough with this for now. I still consider my bottom to be a good enough result that stealing this side leaves me with an advantage. It was a very good choice of top left joseki you made, I'd forgotten all about this one!

Zwergesel · **#30**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:

Yeah, not as good as I'd hoped, but I'm still happy enough with this for now. I still consider my bottom to be a good enough result that stealing this side leaves me with an advantage. It was a very good choice of top left joseki you made, I'd forgotten all about this one!

Thanks, soon we'll get out of the opening though and my joseki knowledge/references won't help me anymore!
I predict that you'll crush me in the middlegame

Strategy and Thoughts
The solid connection should be best! E12 remains as a forcing move for black, but it isn't a threat! The bamboo joint is the only alternative that I see, but it leaves a potential cut at D11 behind!

Numsgil · **#31**

Not sure how open you guys are to kibitzers, but...

dfan · **#32**

Numsgil wrote:

This seems like a case where you want to either do the bamboo or small mouth shape. ie: 'a' or 'b' below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.

Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?

Well, W's group is pretty safe, and D11 has the nice property of reducing the liberties of the C11 group. For example, if W gets C10 in, C13 could become a real problem.

By the way, C10 (after White's actual move at D11) would be a thousand dollar turn. The sequence you give:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is totally not.

topazg · **#33**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Actually, the more I look at it, the top right is a royal mess. My bottom left makes this ok, but still bad. It's a 20 point actual loss up there, but I get semi-sente back with this move because of D4. Letting me play at "a" is hardly painful, but it recoups a lot of my top left loss.

One of the most frustrating things about the top left is the disappearance of a lot of aji. The squeeze of Black "b" through "d" is now gone, because the top group can't be attacked. There's still plenty of "let's make that thickness not very useful" aji up there, but it's not as good. I think the game is very close now, plus or minus 5 points or so, but that's ok, I can work with that

Isn't a living move, it's an attacking move. I can now take "e" and connect in sente at the cost of aji if needed for living space, and obviously I'm aiming at "a" directly.

Triggers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Solomon · **#34**

Looking back, I think 37 was too soft from Black. This sequence looks more promising:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

38 and 40 are necessary to prevent a damezumari issue with the 4 stones. Up to 41 :wc:

is clearly damaged and Black's left side looks good. White could then try to settle with 'a'. Compared to the current state I think Black looks better here.

Zwergesel · **#35**

What's the policy on reading triggers before deciding on a move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 Move 40 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts
First move that crossed my mind! It should make C13 sente for me, unless he wants to tenuki at the cost of getting enclosed! After reading the trigger though, the C9, B8 exchange that he suggested works too and might be a tiny bit better!

topazg · **#36**

Feel free to view my triggers before posting

Probably makes sense to think of the move first purely from an informative point of view, but I'm happy for you to look at my triggers and change the move too...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Move 41 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

I don't think that exchange helps White at all. I'm still looking at jumping out at "a", and the possible bad aji I had from doing so before (White "b", Black "c", White at :b41:

) is now gone. I'm happy that White's wall can be negated towards the middle reasonably effectively if he chooses to tenuki now, but at the same time any move he plays has to be one I can ignore safely.

Zwergesel · **#37**

Strategy and thoughts

I thought that C13 was sente now, but I think I'm wrong! Black can give up part of the corner to get two sente moves, which is just unacceptable for white! The marked stones have no purpose, so giving them up is not a problem for black and the rest of the group should have no problems living or escaping!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 Move 41 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . 7 B O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B O X O O . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . 5 B O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Therefore I'm going to tenuki now and play one of the marked points:
'a' is my first instinct, but the proverb says "Don't use thickness to make territory", so maybe 'b' is better!
However I have to find out whether that proverb applies here, so I'm going to think a bit more before I make a move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 Move 42 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Zwergesel · **#38**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm42 Move 42 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · **#39**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Move 43 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X @ O . , a . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X @ X f . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X @ O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmmm.. this feels like the wrong side to me. He's got so much thickness at the top, and he's pushing me gently towards it allowing me to be strong when I get there. A further extension to "a" virtually eliminates the potential he could have built on the top side, and if he excludes it I'm aiming for "b" and the extension to "c". Still aiming at "d" generally (and probably would have played it if White had approached form the other side), and eyeing the aji at "e" and "f". Sadly, my corner messup (and the more I read, the more of a mess up it really is, it's at least 25 points, maybe more

) has left me unable to attack any of the marked stones. I'm definitely behind by 10 or so points at least at the moment.

Numsgil · **#40**

dfan wrote:

Numsgil wrote:

51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)

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