Teamovich 2

Redundant · **#121**

Ok ... here we go

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Team:

Why did no one suggest this, or even mention it? If we don't play this, our last move is worse than meaningless. It makes white stronger for no benefit at all. I was doing my best to hit you with rhetorical bludgeons until it came up. Our move is big, but extend from the kick is urgent. Play urgent before big!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another comment: This exchange is really bad for us. It's basically saying: please white, take the entire corner. We'll take a stone that's stuck way to close to your thickness in exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry if this came of as a little harsh, but this is a little bit like how I felt watching the suggestions come in...

Marcus · **#122**

Observers only:

WIC:

robinz · **#123**

WIC/suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

They've ignored a move which was supposed to be our sente, so the only consistent follow-up is to follow up on it. While I don't know that much about shape, I'm pretty sure that this point is considered the "vital point" in this type of situation (cf. when the low approach to a 4-4 stone is kicked).

Unfortunately, they may have chosen a good time to tenuki, as it's clearly big, and this move doesn't seem to definitively kill that black stone yet. I certainly can't read any way to kill the group after black extends to C11. But we seem to get a fourth line wall for it, which should help to nullify the influence game black is clearly trying to play here. (They don't have any territory yet, after all ;-)

)

After some sequence gets played out here, I would vote for a second move in the upper right (the 3-4 feels normal) as the biggest play remaining, before we try approaching one of their 4-4s (or perhaps even invading directly). But with the tenuki-happy way black has played so far, I predict they'll probably do something in the upper right now.

Mnemonic · **#124**

@Marcus: your post has a BIC section, are we allowed to read it?

WIC

Marcus · **#125**

Mnemonic wrote:

@Marcus: your post has a BIC section, are we allowed to read it?

heh, oops. This game went on pause for so long, I confused myself. Should be WIC. Fixing now.

lesenv · **#126**

@Redundant

I thought about this move, but I thought the corner was bigger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Somehow i like the second and third diagram better.

Redundant · **#127**

@lesenv:

Marcus · **#128**

It's been long enough that I'm having to go back and rad through our previous moves to see what I need to talk about. Another couple days and I'll post. Sorry for the delay.

robinz · **#129**

@Marcus (+ further WIC):

Mnemonic · **#130**

Sorry for taking a while but I had a tournament this weekend (Won my first book

)

I've been looking at the position and I still think it is vital to pincer the top group although I've been starting to dislike my original choice. It is probably sente but not "too" severe for Black. After they build up strength with this kind of sequence the might even try and attack the lone stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . 2 . . 7 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The original move looked like the right idea but the wrong execution. So here are 2 new moves that also attack blacks group but do so with two fundamentally different strategies:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X a . b . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A: This move goes for the kill. I've read some variation and it is very difficult for white to live, especially with the marked stone. If we win the game is almost over; On the other hand if he does live he has probably killed out corner group or builds tremendous influence to undercut our 45 stone. This is kind of a do or die move and will probably not resonate well with our captain. There is also some kind of proverb that say's you should profit from weak groups by attack, not trying to kill them!

B: This move is fundamentally different from A in that I intend to make black run and connect to tengen while taking profit on both sides and reducing the negative effects of an 34 invasion on the top right. One example variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . 2 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . 5 6 . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 4 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What I'm trying to say is I nominate H16

lesenv · **#131**

@Redundant (and bump!)

Marcus · **#132**

Sorry for the wait.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

WIC:

robinz · **#133**

WIC:

PS: Is Rafa still involved in this game, on our team? If you're reading this Rafa (I certainly recall seeing you about on the forum a few times recently, even if not posting here), I'd certainly like you to be (and I assume the same is true of my team-mates)

Mnemonic · **#134**

WIC

robinz · **#135**

WIC:

SinK · **#136**

BIC:

lesenv · **#137**

Jordus · **#138**

BIC

lesenv · **#139**

BIC, @Jordus

Jordus · **#140**

@lesenv

Teamovich 2

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