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Review Request ~15k
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13975		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Review Request ~15k
One more on my quest for serious games. :blackeye:
My opponent admitted later that he(?) "just fooled around" at some points. Still good enough against me. I rather enjoyed this game, instead of attacking aggressivly to win, he(?) just played better. :)
But i often can’t distinguish between good play and “fooling around” that just works due to my little experience. Some comments on that would be cool.
But anything will be mostly appreciated. :)

Afterthought: If someone prefers a file without my own review and variations, i will gladly provide that.



Attachments:
djham.sgf [8.99 KiB]
Downloaded 549 times
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Hrab,

:w22: Strange.

:b31: Cross-cuts are notoriously difficult. That's probably why W played :w30: .
However, there's a basic shape here that's very nice to learn.

In your :b31: variation -- let's just ignore W's cross-cut stone ( :w30:, at R4 ) for the moment.
You made the wrong atari. Can you find the correct atari.
( There are no doubt many more mistakes in the fundamentals after this,
but to me, to learn this atari is worth this game. :) )
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Many thanks Ed :)

Finding the atari was easy, once you told me. I totally agree about the importance! I had similar situations before, though without the crosscut, and just blocked below (my opponents too). I’ll try out some variations with supporting white stones in the corner to stock up my toolbox.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Atari
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X . . . .|
$$ . . X . O X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Continuation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X . . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . 9 8 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Corrected diagram in post #10, i leave that here so that the following posts still make sense
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Ed Lee wrote:
:b31: Cross-cuts are notoriously difficult. That's probably why W played :w30: .
However, there's a basic shape here that's very nice to learn.


Do you mean this one?:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?AtariFromCrosscut
It will take some time to work through this. :study:

Ed Lee wrote:
There are no doubt many more mistakes in the fundamentals …

And many a thread about it! And maybe even more opinions on the definition ;)
A bit frustrating for me, since i like a structured approach, but for the moment i think it’s best to keep on playing, reviewing, getting reviewed.
Though "First Fundamentals" looks very tempting …
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Hint, hint. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


How many liberties (dame, DAH-MEH) does :wc: have?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Bill Spight wrote:
Hint, hint. :)

I’m not sure wether you are
a) pointing at the obvious: ladder,
or
b) i’m thick as a brick. :scratch:

In case a) thinking of it as a ladder probably anchors it better in the mind.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
You showed in your diagram white killing black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c :w10: added for clarity
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 0 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


I think Bill was hinting that black can do better...
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Hrabanus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Hint, hint. :)

I’m not sure wether you are
a) pointing at the obvious: ladder,
or
b) i’m thick as a brick. :scratch:

In case a) thinking of it as a ladder probably anchors it better in the mind.


Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
So it was b)
The brick :oops:

Thanks emeraldemon :)
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Bill Spight wrote:
Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.


Nothing to feel sorry for! I still miss obvious points frequently, and sometimes i’ve just "got tomatos on my eyes" (don’t know how to say that in english :) )

My previous post shouldn’t sound ungrateful or grumpy at all. I was just putting down my thoughts quickly without thinking about how they might sound without gestures and facial expressions.

I hope i didn’t step on your toes and if so i’m really sorry!
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
On my board i played it out like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Original Situation Corrected
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 7 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


But replaying it in the diagram i didn’t check it properly.
Still my blind spot: future atari
Author:  emeraldemon [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Black can still do better.
Bill mentioned white's liberties. Why? :study:
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
emeraldemon wrote:
Black can still do better.
Bill mentioned white's liberties. Why? :study:


Now i got it, there is a ‘real’ ladder ( :b5: at o2), not just a ‘kind of‘ ladder :!:

Many thanks to both of you for talking me through it! :bow:

(i think i’ll give meself the “brick-head of the day award” :D )
Author:  emeraldemon [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
You should give yourself the "learned something cool today" award :tmbup:
Author:  Hrabanus [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
emeraldemon wrote:
You should give yourself the "learned something cool today" award :tmbup:


You are right! I’ll take that one too. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Hrabanus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.


Nothing to feel sorry for! I still miss obvious points frequently, and sometimes i’ve just "got tomatos on my eyes" (don’t know how to say that in english :) )

My previous post shouldn’t sound ungrateful or grumpy at all. I was just putting down my thoughts quickly without thinking about how they might sound without gestures and facial expressions.

I hope i didn’t step on your toes and if so i’m really sorry!


No problemo. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
Hrabanus wrote:
On my board i played it out like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Original Situation Corrected
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 7 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]


But replaying it in the diagram i didn’t check it properly.
Still my blind spot: future atari


Yeah, the White string is a goner. But a) you took an extra move to dispatch it, and b) it still has aji. White can threaten to save it.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Hrab,

You're very welcome.

Supplements to Bill and emerald's notes:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X , . . .|
$$ . . X b O X . . .|
$$ . . . . a . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ------------------[/go]
  • In Chinese, there are actually different descriptions for the two starting moves (a) and (b).
    This distinction seems to be missing in English ;
    not sure about in Japanese or in Deutsch.
  • Read as far as you can. ( Re: missing the ladder; post 3. )
  • Liberties, liberties, liberties. ( Posts 4, 10 )
Author:  Rémi [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Review Request ~15k
https://www.crazy-sensei.com/?lang=fr&g ... ation=game
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13983
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