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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #21 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:35 pm 
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DJLLAP wrote:
Hades12 wrote:

I would recommend you start a new account and set your rank to 3k and see how you do from there. At the lower ranks there are a lot of sandbaggers.



I started a new account just now and won my first game as 1 dan. Ain't that a kick.


Congrats!

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #22 Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 8:44 am 
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Your rank on Tygem depends on your fighting ability.
One of my students, who can fight well, is 2k on KGS and 1d on Tygem. On 2k KGS level it's much harder for him to win games.
On Tygem you have to fight in every game!

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #23 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:08 pm 
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It seems to me that 1 stone of rank on KGS is more like 2 ranks on Tygem.
That is, each 'rank' on Tygem is actually worth significantly less than 1 stone of handicap.


As a result the tygem scale is far more spread out.
Dan players are usually ranked higher on Tygem than kgs, since the Tygem ranks go up to 9d.

But for kyu players, we are ranked lower on Tygem.
I'm 8k on KGS but 12k on Tygem, with about a 50% win rate at that level.


I dont think its 'fighting skill' as much as it is a mathematical property of how Tygem calculated ratings compared to how KGS calculates them.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #24 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:14 pm 
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Does tygem calculate anything in reality? it just checks to see if you pass some won # threshold in your last 20 games.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #25 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:48 pm 
Judan

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Abyssinica wrote:
Does tygem calculate anything in reality? it just checks to see if you pass some won # threshold in your last 20 games.


Yes, that is what it calculates.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #26 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:24 pm 
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I don't call that a calculation because I think of a rating system with actual maths behind it

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #27 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:29 pm 
Judan

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Abyssinica wrote:
I don't call that a calculation


Google dictionary wrote:
cal·cu·la·tion
/ˌkalkyəˈlāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: calculation; plural noun: calculations

a mathematical determination of the size or number of something.


Tygem mathematically calculates someone's rank, based their past games, as you described. You may not agree with the calculation, or perhaps you think it's too simple. But it determines a rank based on your performance in games.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #28 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:31 pm 
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In this way does tygem actually have a "rating" to calculate?

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #29 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:57 pm 
Judan

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Abyssinica wrote:
In this way does tygem actually have a "rating" to calculate?


Your rating is your rank. Since the calculation is simpler than other methods, it's not necessary to add in additional numbers. If you want to think of a numerical rating like ELO or WHR, you can just make arbitrary values (eg. 1d=100, 2d=200, 3d=300, etc.).

The point is, this rank/rating is calculated based on game results, even if the method of calculation is simpler than more complicated models.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #30 Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:57 am 
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I think Tygem has rating points as well. They just don't have any influence on your rank.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #31 Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:13 am 
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If your anchor players (e.g. Zen) could play enough games on the go server, then I speculate that eventually the ranking algorithm wouldn't matter. It would be an interesting mathematical challenge to figure out how much "enough" is and how "long" eventually is, for any given server and it's algorithm.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #32 Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:20 pm 
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quantumf wrote:
If your anchor players (e.g. Zen) could play enough games on the go server, then I speculate that eventually the ranking algorithm wouldn't matter. It would be an interesting mathematical challenge to figure out how much "enough" is and how "long" eventually is, for any given server and it's algorithm.

For this to work I think the players on both servers would need to be the same (and require that they interact with the anchor players at a high enough frequency and in the same way).

In a sense, the anchor players are part of the algorithm. We can think of them acting a little like interpolation points, while the rules for ranking up act like the interpolation. But this is an imprecise analogy, as their influence on the rank-curve would depend on their interactions with the players on the server: both the frequency of interaction (how often does a typical player play against an anchor), how do they play against the anchor (do they always play even or do they more often play with a handicap) and how well do players on the server play against their style (do they do well at fighting, but less well with large moyos).

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #33 Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:05 pm 
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S2W wrote:
[good points...] In a sense, the anchor players are part of the algorithm. [more good points...]


Yep, all true. An additional point which you indirectly raised is that there's a reasonable likelihood the anchor players will have different ranks on the different systems. Even if you had the intention to fix their ranks, algorithms like the one KGS uses allow for re-anchoring and subsequent auto-adjustment of everyone else, but I'm pretty sure the Tygem algorithm does not.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #34 Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:16 am 
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If I remember correctly, your rank on Tygem is based on your 20 last games: if you win or lose 14 games out of them, then you rank up or down. Then, if you had a winning/losing strike that goes on for a few more games (how many I'm not sure), you'll continue ranking down/up pretty damn soon. But if the strike stops quickly after changing ranks, then you'll have to complete your new 20 games set on this new rank (with 14 wins/losses out of 20 games) before going up or down again...
I like that you always know how many more wins/losses you need to change your rank. I don't see having different ranks on different servers as a problem: I know I'm 1dan on Tygem and WBaduk but only 3kyu on KGS, so I feel 1dan players on Tygem are nothing special, while they frighten me on KGS...
The only issue I can think of with all that would be at the utmost rank: there seems to have quite a gap in strength between some 9dan players on Tygem (just look at Haylee's winning ratio there). Which means that they could either promote the stronger players to 10dan, or keep them to 9dan and demote all others to a lower rank (except for beginners?).
But then I wouldn't be a 1dan on Tygem anymore :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #35 Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:01 pm 
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I don't play that often, but I've been a 1D on KGS for a bit and just recently ranked up to 3D tygem, and the last few games I played feel even. Might matter what time we're playing, too, given Tygem's quirky rating "system." Based on my results from people who had several hundred+ games, versus those with far fewer games, I could be convinced that if I don't get stronger I'll stabilize around 4D on tygem.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #36 Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:08 pm 
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erislover wrote:
I don't play that often, but I've been a 1D on KGS for a bit and just recently ranked up to 3D tygem, and the last few games I played feel even. Might matter what time we're playing, too, given Tygem's quirky rating "system." Based on my results from people who had several hundred+ games, versus those with far fewer games, I could be convinced that if I don't get stronger I'll stabilize around 4D on tygem.


I can second that.

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