In another post viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1299

tells us that at tthe EGC in tampere there was a problem with overtime. (details are not in the post yet)

This did make me wondering.

The AGA and EGF rules hardly say anything about this and in fact it is a minefield that needs some regulation.


Do clocks need to sound the last seconds of overtime?
(as far as I see it is suspected but not required)

May the volume of a clock turned up (and who may do so)

Can players ask for a timecaller (looks okay)
Can the TD decide without the players asking for it add a timekeeper to the game?


and more of these questions.

Also i noticed a small diference between the AGA and EGF rules.
The aga allowes to stop the a clock to remove 2 captured stones while the EGF requires a removal of 3 stones before the clock may be stopped.

weblinks to the rules

AGA: http://usgo.org/tournaments/Resources/
- AGA Tournament Regulations

EGF: http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/index.htm
- EGF General Tournament Rules (Updated June 2010)

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Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

It can be seen as one of the few advantages of canadian byoyomi that the players know when they get into it (it is hard not to notice when you are required to count out stones and adjust the clock).

With the otherwise much better overtime systems that are managed by the clock, I think that it is important to have an appropriate acoustic or optic warning. As I have already written in the other thread, I think that the clocks should have the possibility to make a soundcheck immediately before starting the game.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

I'm one of the organizers of this years Delft's Go Tournament.

Therefore I'm interested in this topic. Even though most cases are solved between the players
I think it is important to have/know the official ruling in such a case.

It is my understanding that it is customary to use the following rules regarding time issues in The Netherlands:

When you don't play on time in Byoyomi, you effectively "played" a pass, and the game continues. (This happened to my opponent once, and I got two moves in a row)
When you don't play your last move of the Canadian overtime within the time limit you lose the game.
When using a clock that does not beep, and you run out of time on your first byoyomi period, this is a special case. (you failed to noticed overtime already started, or because you expected the clock to beep)
In this case you, or your opponent will tell you are in overtime, after which you are still allowed to make your move and continue as if you just started overtime without running out of time on the first period.
If your clock does not beep, you are also allowed to ask for someone to count out your byoyomi if you want (saying: ten... five, four, three, two one,).

These "special" rules are announced at the start of the tournament. If players use Byoyomi or Canadian time is usually left to the players to decide.

In rapid tournaments it is up to the opponent to claim the game, or a pass on time. If he fails to notice the game continues. (I guess it's the same in normal tournaments)
I found this last bit out the hard way.... My flag fell and my opponent claimed the game, while his flag had already fallen 5 min ago

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Laurens
Go school: freegame's Teaching School
Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

At the moment there is a ruling from the appeals commitee (from the thread in the EGF forum)



But this is I guess only provisional decision and not a final ruling.
I hope the rules comitee will make an ammendent for the tournament regulations

The problem is that it is reasonable that for the topboards and top tournaments the rules differ from the recreational players.

You can see the same in chess:
For recreational players the player themselves need to claim that their opponents flag has fallen (ACF, American Chess Federation rule 13C1), while for professionals the TD may call the forfait(FIDE rule 6.8)

Also in our game for topboards there are digital bleeping and speaking clocks available while for recreational players old fashioned silent analog chess clocks are the norm.

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Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

For the situation in question, the AGA rules are quite clear - it is the responsibility of the players themselves to make sure the equipment is in working order. Other people should check when they set it up, but ultimately it is the players' responsibility, except for things like battery running out during a match or something.



In my opinion, they should, but I'm not on any kind of board or advisory position. It is not required due to the difficulty of obtaining electronic clocks in quantity for smaller clubs.



They players set the volume to something they both agree on - I've never known it to be an unachievable thing in practice. But then, I've never played with one of the very new ING clocks that can apparently be set to zero volume. If both players agree to it, then any problem is on their heads, but I certainly wouldn't.

I also never even have touched an ING clock,

But then is it unfair to put the responsibility for the right settings of a clockat the players while you know that they don't know how to set it up in the first place? (and thus have nothing to agree on)

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Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

At the US Go Congress the congress manual gives instructions on how to set the clocks, and players are welcome to ask the TD for help. If they still screw it up (I've seen one case where they didn't set any byo-yomi), the TD usually tries to make accomodations if possible.

The more interesting question from my end involves the AGA's rule about stopping a clock in order to remove a large number of captured stones. The power button is not so far away from the stop-clock button. What happens if I accidentally turn off the clock when I meant to stop the time?

A few years a go, I got the honor of being the timekeeper at a 3 game final match between a pro and a strong amateur. At the time, I didn't know anything about how professional matches in Japan, China or Korea were conducted, and had no preparatory instruction, but I was aware of the general dislike of talking Ing clocks by many, if not most amateurs.

So as far as I knew, my only function was to press the buttons on the clock for each player's turn. Durning byo-yomi, I noticed the pro's annoyance of having to look up at the clock to know how much time she had left (especially since it was on a different table). But I didn't put 2 and 2 together until much, much later that I should have been announcing out loud the time so that they didn't have to look at the clock.

Nice story!

I wonder, did the clock have a display on both sides, front and back?

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

No. It was a newer clock, Chronos, or Excalaber, I don't remember exactly, but just single sided display.

I don't know of any clocks with duel sided displays (except the Ing clocks, but that's not quite the sane thing)

Then how did you sit so that you could have read the clock while also allowing the players to look at their time?

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

while it was a different table, but the tables were right next to each other.

Please mark your position.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

haha, why so much interest in these details?
there's probably a photo of the event on the internet somewhere, but I'd probably never find it myself.




I'd say the clock was just out of reach of the players, but still clearly visible to them. It was maybe 4 or 5 years ago, so my memory gets a little fuzzy.

Well, I had the impression that you would necessarily have an awkward angle to read the clock, if both players could see the clock and you sat in a position that does not disturb them. I probably underestimated the displays of the clock.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.