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 Post subject: StarCraft II moves
Post #1 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:30 am 
Judan
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StarCraft II article:
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While in GO the possible number of moves is more than the atoms in the universe, it is a finite number.
In StarCraft it can't be calculated.
Could someone elaborate. :)

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #2 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:44 am 
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I assume that they mean that when you add in things like the precise location and timing of clicks (I could have clicked one pixel to the right, or 1 millisecond later), the space of possible games blows up even faster than in Go.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #3 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:52 am 
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I'm just guessing, but it feels more like it makes no sense to talk about the number of possible actions - Since it is an RTS (Real time strategy) game, the game is driven by continuous player input (call them actions - these correspond to mouse clicks and button clicking). A quick google search indicates that professional SC2 players are above 200 actions per minute, but what those actions are? A player could just click between two units indefinitely, or spam a single hotkey, or any of the numerous available actions / inputs.

So while not infinite (? I'm guessing - since there is a finite amount of available actions / inputs and given a set APM there should be some sort of upper bound for a set game length), it certainly makes no sense to talk about the game-space as number of permutations (like a Go game) - to me anyhow.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #4 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:21 pm 
Oza

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I suspect the number of actions is perfectly well defined (computers are ultimately discrete), but utterly impractical to try and estimate. There game takes place on a large board (>= 10000 x 10000 pixels), there are dozens of different pieces, you can have anywhere from zero to hundreds/thousands of each resource, the number of maps is some ridiculous number greater than 2 ^ (2 * 1000 * 1000)...

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #5 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:26 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
I suspect the number of actions is perfectly well defined (computers are ultimately discrete), but utterly impractical to try and estimate. There game takes place on a large board (>= 10000 x 10000 pixels), there are dozens of different pieces, you can have anywhere from zero to hundreds/thousands of each resource, the number of maps is some ridiculous number greater than 2 ^ (2 * 1000 * 1000)...


Without a time limit, couldn't the theoretical limit defy definition?

Resources are limited I guess, but I could imagine defining what a branching factor is and proving an end state happens in some time is almost impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #6 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:40 pm 
Oza

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oren wrote:
Without a time limit, couldn't the theoretical limit defy definition?

Resources are limited I guess, but I could imagine defining what a branching factor is and proving an end state happens in some time is almost impossible.
I think that would give you a countably infinite number of games, but you'd be cycling through a finite number of states.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #7 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Quote:
While in GO the possible number of moves is more than the atoms in the universe, it is a finite number.
In StarCraft it can't be calculated.


I wouldn't read too much into it. The way it's worded it doesn't sound to me that the author understood what he was saying. There are many things which can't being calculated and are finite.

In contrast to Go I assume that starcraft can go into a standoff or long cycles, where no player can get a decisive advantage. That's a difference to Go, where the number of legal moves gets smaller the more points on the board get occupied. Also number of legal moves at any stage (click that pixel. Or the pixel next to it. Or wait for a frame.) is way bigger than go's couple of 100ds.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:57 am 
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bayu wrote:
Quote:
While in GO the possible number of moves is more than the atoms in the universe, it is a finite number.
In StarCraft it can't be calculated.


I wouldn't read too much into it. The way it's worded it doesn't sound to me that the author understood what he was saying. There are many things which can't being calculated and are finite.

In contrast to Go I assume that starcraft can go into a standoff or long cycles, where no player can get a decisive advantage. That's a difference to Go, where the number of legal moves gets smaller the more points on the board get occupied. Also number of legal moves at any stage (click that pixel. Or the pixel next to it. Or wait for a frame.) is way bigger than go's couple of 100ds.


You are right to some extent, also, the difference is that in Go there are clear rules. Like you cannot play outside the board, while SC is rather a "wildcard" game - in a sense that you can do a lot of wacko things, as long as they happen "in the game"

Go is still better,IMHO ;)

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:17 am 
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The comparison doesn't make much sense. A tiny 19x19 3 color animated gif has more possible states than GO (practically infinite when there is no limit on animation length but even if we prohibit repetition there are more possibilities due to the lack of rules). Even the number PI has more digits (again, infinite) than possible GO games there are.

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 Post subject: Re: StarCraft II moves
Post #10 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:51 am 
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EdLee wrote:
StarCraft II article:
Quote:
While in GO the possible number of moves is more than the atoms in the universe, it is a finite number.
In StarCraft it can't be calculated.
Could someone elaborate. :)

Thanks.


The number of possible moves in go is at most 363. (361 intersections on an empty board + pass + resign.) But I guess that's not what they meant :)

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