First sentence about go

msgreg · #1

I used to expound my knowledge of the game to newcomers, but now I find it very striking that one of the first things some people say about go is represented here (from a kid's book on how to play go):

"It's just the game's name. In Japan it's called Igo, in China they call it Wei Ch'i, and in Korea it's called Baduk. But we call it 'Go'."

I think I'm going to stop saying this early on. It seems jarring to my ears now because I never hear people say: have you ever tried this game? It's called draughts in England, dame in France, but here it's called checkers!

Similarly: "it's called noughts and crosses, or Xs and Os, but we call it tic-tac-toe."

Now I'm wondering if I should mention the history, culture/countries at all. "It's the oldest game still played in it's original form" and "it's popular in asia".

I kind of lean towards "it's a fun game you can learn in about 5 minutes" and "it's easy, want to learn?"

Twitchy Go · #2

msgreg wrote:

I used to expound my knowledge of the game to newcomers, but now I find it very striking that one of the first things some people say about go is represented here (from a kid's book on how to play go):

"It's just the game's name. In Japan it's called Igo, in China they call it Wei Ch'i, and in Korea it's called Baduk. But we call it 'Go'."

I think I'm going to stop saying this early on. It seems jarring to my ears now because I never hear people say: have you ever tried this game? It's called draughts in England, dame in France, but here it's called checkers!

Similarly: "it's called noughts and crosses, or Xs and Os, but we call it tic-tac-toe."

Now I'm wondering if I should mention the history, culture/countries at all. "It's the oldest game still played in it's original form" and "it's popular in asia".

I kind of lean towards "it's a fun game you can learn in about 5 minutes" and "it's easy, want to learn?"

emphasis and color added

I really like the simplicity of this. I think the cultural background is a very cool part of the game, but not necessarily what you need to first expose a neophyte to.

I'm one of the stronger players at my schools club and we have a good number of beginners. One of the things I consciously try to do is not overload them with all the ~ekis and ~ujis there are. "This keima is a brilliant tesuji for life, the hane you played only allows for a seki." Seems unnecessarily confusing. The new player will understand "If you play the small knights move you can live. Bending around your opponents stone like that only lets you have duel life."

Bonobo · #3

I often ramble about like this:

“Ever heard about Go? That Japanese board game with two letters?” (that’s how its often seen in German crossword puzzles) … “It’s a sedentary martial art” (not sure about my use of “sedentary” here, in German I say “Kampfkunst im Sitzen”).

msgreg · #4

Twitchy Go wrote:

The new player will understand "If you play the small knights move you can live. Bending around your opponents stone like that only lets you have duel life."

Just to keep the thread on track: the new players I'm talking about won't even understand these concepts. I'm talking (like your previous paragraph) the very first sentence. If we extend to the first few games: most newcomers won't even understand "life" in the first four games. They're still getting used to how to capture.

Typical first game comments: "oh, diagonals don't count. That's right" and "can I move on the edge?" and "oh, I place on the intersections". The first game typically is learning about capturing a chain of stones and more frequently, learning that 2nd line is the line of defeat (especially with capture go, if you don't extend after an attach) :-)

EdLee · #5

msgreg wrote:

...because I never hear people say: have you ever tried this game? It's called draughts in England, dame in France, but here it's called checkers!

Could it be because most people "here" (in the West) already know about checkers?
Or, what do you hear people actually say about checkers to somebody who's never seen it before?

Another example: to someone who's never seen it before, one may reply, "It's called soccer in some countries, and football in others."

msgreg wrote:

Now I'm wondering if I should mention the history, culture/countries at all.

Go is very deep, as we all know. I think trying to find a "perfect" one-liner (or, even a 10-liner) to introduce it to a beginner may not be a right path.
That's my experience anyway. I also have been playing in coffee shops (pre-Starbucks, even!) and bookstores for many years,
and have had countless people ask about it. I also have not found a good "few"-liner introduction.

I think what's more important is your passion, your clarity of explanation, and the beginner --
I think these are much more deciding factors than a one-liner.
Math Museum

msgreg · #6

I did start collecting the "very short introductions to go"

http://www.cmgo.org/learn/very-short

burrkitty · #7

That straws and breathing analogy is how I learned about liberties. It's a good one.

Bill Spight · #8

msgreg wrote:

(from a kid's book on how to play go):

"It's just the game's name. In Japan it's called Igo, in China they call it Wei Ch'i, and in Korea it's called Baduk. But we call it 'Go'."

We call it "The Glass Bead Game". :cool:

Redbeard · #9

I also think keeping it simple is best. If I need to introduce the game, which I do sometimes when the SGC is doing public outreach, I usually say: "Go was invented in China over 4000 years ago, Some of the first written records found in China mention the game. It was also popular in Japan during the time of the Samurai, and is played all over the world today. It's very easy to learn, but gets more complex the more you play. There are 5 basic rules to play Go, do you want to learn?"

For the record my 5 Basic rules are:

1) Black goes first, white goes second.
2) Play on the intersections, not the spaces.
3) Play anywhere on the board with an open liberty.
4) If all liberties are taken, the stone is removed from the board.
5) At the end of the game, you count the empty spaces surrounded not the stones.

I then start playing Atari Go with a caveat that if no stones are captured we will count the score as a regular Go game. I clarify the rules as we play and I try not to discuss strategy unless asked.

After they are introduced the the game, I send them to a real teacher who can correct all of the mistakes I taught them

daal · **#10**

Mine is like Redbeard's, except even simpler:

Go is a very popular game in Asia, where it's been played for over 4000 years. It's easy to learn, but it's absolutely fascinating. The stones are placed on the intersections, first black, then white, and don't move unless they are captured - which happens when all of their liberties are taken. (demonstrate). Whoever surrounds the most space on the board wins.

billywoods · **#11**

Bonobo wrote:

not sure about my use of “sedentary” here

msgreg wrote:

"It's just the game's name. In Japan it's called Igo, in China they call it Wei Ch'i, and in Korea it's called Baduk. But we call it 'Go'."

I think I'm going to stop saying this early on

Completely agree. Perhaps it's nice to know that "go" derives from "igo" (see spoiler), but I won't tell people that unless they ask. Nobody asks where the word "chess" comes from on their first day: partly because it doesn't look so obviously like an easily confused word, but partly because it's not an interesting fact to people who want to learn the game.

LocoRon · **#12**

Quote:

Go is a very popular game in Asia, where it's been played for over 4000 years. [etc.]

I think one of the points of this thread (and that Go commercial thread, and possibly others) is that these kinds of introductions are actually counterproductive.

I mean, if you wanted to introduce someone to Monopoly, would you tell them "it can trace its origins back to 1903, when some American woman invented a game she hoped to use to explain the single tax theory of some guy"? I can say for sure that if Monopoly had been introduced to me like that, I would never have touched it with a ten-foot pole.

Now, I'm not saying all that flavor text is bad. It might hook some people enough to get them to try their first game; what I will say is, be very sparing with these kinds of introductions. They could be good for history buffs, or people who are fascinated by various Asian cultures.

But for people just looking for a game to play, or who exhibit some curiosity about the game they see you playing, perhaps it might behoove you to cut straight to explaining the game, and explain as simply, and briefly as possible. (We all like to emphasize how easy it is to learn, but I can't help but wonder what people must think about that when our attempts at explaining it end up sounding like the synopsis for a thesis.)

daal · **#13**

LocoRon wrote:

Quote:

Go is a very popular game in Asia, where it's been played for over 4000 years. [etc.]

I think one of the points of this thread (and that Go commercial thread, and possibly others) is that these kinds of introductions are actually counterproductive.

I mean, if you wanted to introduce someone to Monopoly, would you tell them "it can trace its origins back to 1903, when some American woman invented a game she hoped to use to explain the single tax theory of some guy"? I can say for sure that if Monopoly had been introduced to me like that, I would never have touched it with a ten-foot pole.

Now, I'm not saying all that flavor text is bad. It might hook some people enough to get them to try their first game; what I will say is, be very sparing with these kinds of introductions. They could be could for history buffs, or people who are fascinated by various Asian cultures.

But for people just looking for a game to play, or who exhibit some curiosity about the game they see you playing, perhaps it might behoove you to cut straight to explaining the game, and explain as simply, and briefly as possible. (We all like to emphasize how easy it is to learn, but I can't help but wonder what people must think about that when our attempts at explaining it end up sounding like the synopsis for a thesis.)

Ok, I'll disagree with that. The fact that a game is 4000 years old is something that everyone I've said it to has found interesting, and not at all in the same category as the history of monopoly. You don't have to be a history buff or an Asia fan to find such a long history remarkable. Also, the one attention getting sentence is in fact a rather curt introduction and usually offers the opportunity for a little conversation to judge the nature of the person's interests.

msgreg · **#14**

daal wrote:

LocoRon wrote:

Quote:

Go is a very popular game in Asia, where it's been played for over 4000 years. [etc.]

I think one of the points of this thread (and that Go commercial thread, and possibly others) is that these kinds of introductions are actually counterproductive.

I mean, if you wanted to introduce someone to Monopoly, would you tell them "it can trace its origins back to 1903, when some American woman invented a game she hoped to use to explain the single tax theory of some guy"? I can say for sure that if Monopoly had been introduced to me like that, I would never have touched it with a ten-foot pole.

Now, I'm not saying all that flavor text is bad. It might hook some people enough to get them to try their first game; what I will say is, be very sparing with these kinds of introductions. They could be could for history buffs, or people who are fascinated by various Asian cultures.

But for people just looking for a game to play, or who exhibit some curiosity about the game they see you playing, perhaps it might behoove you to cut straight to explaining the game, and explain as simply, and briefly as possible. (We all like to emphasize how easy it is to learn, but I can't help but wonder what people must think about that when our attempts at explaining it end up sounding like the synopsis for a thesis.)

Ok, I'll disagree with that. The fact that a game is 4000 years old is something that everyone I've said it to has found interesting, and not at all in the same category as the history of monopoly. You don't have to be a history buff or an Asia fan to find such a long history remarkable. Also, the one attention getting sentence is in fact a rather curt introduction and usually offers the opportunity for a little conversation to judge the nature of the person's interests.

Very interesting difference here. I, too, have introduced the game mentioning early on (first 2 minutes) as "4000 years old". Maybe that needs to be modified only to those who ask "is it new?" (which a few people have). Kind of like not overloading the rules with "ko" and "sente" for the first game unless asked. The most common reaction to an unsolicited "2500-4000 years old" is a slighlty positive "hmm.." The most common reaction to a solicited "2500-4000 years old" is "oh, wow".

Also, I probably will start to modify "the oldest game in the world played in its original form" to "the oldest game in the world that we know the rules of".

Now, what about a good answer to "I know what you're playing: that flipping game" or "are you playing Othello"? My response is something like "it's kind of like that, but in this game they don't flip. You try to get the most territory and you can capture and remove stones. It's called 'go.'"

I love that this thread is pulling out great reactions to onlookers.

burrkitty · **#15**

msgreg wrote:

Also, I probably will start to modify "the oldest game in the world played in its original form" to "the oldest game in the world that we know the rules of".

Do we know that? I'm not a huge history researcher, but while I do know that the history of Go is very long... Do we actually know that we play it now like it was in its original incarnation? Or that we know the historic rules? Maybe simply "the oldest known board game" because I doubt that even with a 4000 year history it is older than hide and seek!

msgreg · **#16**

burrkitty wrote:

msgreg wrote:

Also, I probably will start to modify "the oldest game in the world played in its original form" to "the oldest game in the world that we know the rules of".

Do we know that? I'm not a huge history researcher, but while I do know that the history of Go is very long... Do we actually know that we play it now like it was in its original incarnation? Or that we know the historic rules? Maybe simply "the oldest known board game" because I doubt that even with a 4000 year history it is older than hide and seek!

Yes I should have said "board game" good catch!

Continued in this thread...

LocoRon · **#17**

daal wrote:

The fact that a game is 4000 years old is something that everyone I've said it to has found interesting,

Everyone I've told that to has found it interesting as well. And not a single one of them has been inclined to try Go because of it.

(As for my comment about Monopoly; I actually think its history is fascinating as well. It just wouldn't get me to play it.)

First sentence about go

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