Hi George,

( Re: posts 4 & 5. )

R4 is quite big.

Bad. The lower right corner is already W's --
you don't need to do anything there now.
Why did you think you needed ?
Please show an exact sequence, not just a "feeling".

The game move extend D17 is good;
the hane E17 variation is bad.
If W hanes E17, B would not turn at F17 in the variation ( W's fantasy );
B would cut at D17 ( the shared vital point ).
After B cuts at D17, B has miai to capture your E17 stone
or atari-push at D15.

About your notes here:
D17 extend is not passive; it's a very strong and big move.
E17 hane is bad shape, with weaknesses for W.

You need to reply to . W is happy to extend to D13.

No. B hanes at D13, the local shared vital point.
W cannot allow B to atari-push-through at D15, so W must reply.
Example: if W pulls back to C14, B can just connect at E13.
B has already benefited because you ignored .

Connect. Back in post 1:When we play a move, we want to have a reason for it
( at least one reason; the more good reasons, the better;
sometimes we have the wrong reasons, which we discover later ).
Why did you play ?
This is a local situation; not about big points or direction, etc.
You are in atari (of course, connect is not always correct), why didn't you connect ? What's the specific reason ( tactically ) for ?
( Just like , a "fuzzy feeling" is not good enough here ;
what's your exact reading that prompted you not to connect but play ?

In your variation for , you stopped short:
B's next move is Q17 atari -- it's a ko.

This time you connected (correct). Re:

E11.

I followed until , and stopped -- Re: posts 4 & 5.

Ed, thanks for taking the time to review, I really appreciate the pointers!


The situation I was concerned about was unfounded. I thought if Black cut, they'd be able to take the left side of that group, but now working through the variations this is unlikely. I should have tried to read out the situation instead of just reacting by instinct (since my Go instincts are still in their infancy and cannot be trusted)!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 4 . . |
$$ . . 5 3 2 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X 1 O O . . |
$$ . . X O 3 6 . . |
$$ . . 5 2 4 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

I remember thinking I needed to protect the corner, but looking at it again, I can see that protected both the corner and the sides. Black would have had a hard time trying to crawl around that.

You're also right. The hane varation would have been disastrous for the corner.


Looking back, this seems silly now. My original thinking was that if I can set up a stone underneath the ko, like , that if he takes the stone, I can take back and break the ko from underneath. I had a game where there was a sort of ko cascade in several connected diamonds where I was able to flip a corner ­ I was trying to repeat my success. I remember thinking something like this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Fantasy ko sequence
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . .
$$ | . . . O X X .
$$ | . . O X X . .
$$ | . O 1 O X . .
$$ | . . O X C . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . , . . .[/go]

...and aiming at the marked point, but Black would just connect there. It's all out of sequence and painfully obvious now. I played without really thinking about how it would play out.


I actually didn't see this until you mentioned it. Another lesson in slowing down and actually reading the situation.


I've started tracking my progress and game results in a spreadsheet (I'm very visual) and sadly my games completed chart has plateaued recently. I have 5 concurrent correspondence games going across different servers but this is another good reminder to prioritize just playing over tsumegos, reading, or lectures.

Thanks again for your comments!

Hi George,Yea, this takes time. One step at a time. For example, variation 1:
is not a cut; it's a clamp.
And your is incorrect; can you find the correct local sequence ?
( In your var, is incorrect, and is also incorrect. )

( We go through your replies one by one; one step at a time.
We deal with your var 2 next. )

Take 2 at variations

Thinking about it again, the clamp would seem to threaten above and below the marked white stone? If playing below, if Black tries to take, then connect at 4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X 4 O O . . |
$$ . . X Q 1 . . . |
$$ . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

If black tries to play above after 2, then atari? And if Black keeps going, then capture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X 3 O O . . |
$$ . . X Q 1 4 . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Seems like that's one extra point (of territory) for White than my original variations. Not sure if that's the right sequence, but it's a little better.

Also in my original variations puts itself into atari, which would be foolish. would have captured ... and Black could have gone on to start a ko on the bottom?

Hi George,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ . . 4 3 2 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

( I shaved off two horizontal lines on top;
in posts 22 and 24, you shifted from P6 to Q6.
We focus only on the very local reply to the clamp. )
Correct about and ( but still incorrect ).We're getting a bit off course; we can discuss this later. But first:Both of these vars are still incorrect. The correct is still tricky for you.

Yes, I often struggle with how my opponent will reply to my move when I try to visualize a sequence. Thank you for your patience.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Take 3
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X b O O . . |
$$ . a X O 1 . . . |
$$ . 3 2 4 . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

I started here, thinking that moving out one stone on the first line still gives the same space, but creates a weakness at A. However, I noticed that Black can play at B, and eat those White stones. I cannot capture fast enough to prevent or defend. So this cannot be the correct variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Take 4
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 2 . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

I think I might be overthinking it. In my original variation I atari from underneath, allowing Black to run in. If I atari from the right, even if Black tries to save at A, there's nowhere to go.

I think the variations you provided are more than good enough to prove that the black clamp at is just bad.
I think Ed wants to play at b in your last diagram(right?),which is even better, because this threatens the cut follow up. But even without that cut, black 1 would be just bad, as most of the moves you provided show(descent and either atari seem all fine to me in that respect).

I had made an earlier diagramming mistake that would affect the cut, context you didn't have. Adding it back in for reference.

I had considered connecting after the hypothetical clamp, but it seemed risky to me. If Black plays underneath:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ . . 4 X X O . . |
$$ . . X 2 O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ . . b 3 a . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

I can't play at A or B. If I take the cut then Black could connect at 5. Defending the lower right corner might be difficult. Unless there's something I've overlooked.

I would agree that the clamp is bad for Black and that my reasoning in-game for was faulty, but this is a good puzzle for me. Where is the path to MAXIMUM PUNISHMENT!?

I'm not sure the cut is so scary right away, its just something additional to worry black, but you need to realize that your black 3 is a small gote endgame. yes he takes some point away from you, but very few. If you want to cut right away, the continuation would be exend at 6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ . 6 4 X X O . . |
$$ . . X 2 O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ . . b 3 a . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

to see that his connection at 3 is small:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . X 2 O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 5 6 . |
$$ . . b 3 a . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

If you play away with 4, then his push in at 5 doesnt do to much, as he needs to come back protect at a after 6.


Also, come to think of it, maybe Ed was opting for tenuki as (which gives up 1 stones). That might be even better, but this was about showing that is not to be feared, so I wouldnt show that with tenuki.

Hi George,
Thank you for the patience; I was looking for this atari in take 4, but because of other local properties (say, (x)), this wasn't so clear.
I debated for some time whether to tweak the local shape a bit; example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . |
$$ . . . X . O O O . |
$$ . X . X O 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Hi George,

With a tweaked local shape, we can go back to your question end of post 24:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . |
$$ . . . X . O O O . |
$$ . . . X O X . . . |
$$ . . . O . O . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

If B hane-blocks, a ko is possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . |
$$ . . . X . O O O . |
$$ . . 2 X O X . . . |
$$ . . 1 O 3 O . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

If B pulls back or jumps back, then no cut for ( ko still possible later ) :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . |
$$ . . . X . O O O . |
$$ . . 1 X O X . . . |
$$ . . . O . O . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . |
$$ . . . X . O O O . |
$$ . 1 . X O X . . . |
$$ . . . O . O . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

I've been wanting to interject in this discussion for a while, and now that Ed's reached his conclusion it seems reasonable to do so. And my point is that in fact George's initial move 2 was actually better than Ed's suggested move 2! This is a rather more subtle point than George's initial mistake of thinking there was a problem in the corner that necessitated white 18, so is aimed more at Ed and sdk or low-dan level players (though hopefully George can follow), indeed it is a shape mistake I still sometimes make at 4 dan (because of the same instinct that Ed has of atari from 2nd line being normal).



To simplify the position I will add back on the 2 lines above (to make it clear the white group is totally alive), and get rid of that potential cut in the wall:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B White to play
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Black's wedging in move of 1 (I wouldn't call it a clamp, maybe an atekomi) isnt't a good move, just giving white a dead stone, but how best to answer (locally)? The problem with Ed's atari from the right (the usual instinct to capture a stone on the 2nd line) is that black's first line descent becomes sente to save the stone (would probably be played much later). This can have quite some endgame value and in other situations can even affect the life and death status of the black group (I have once made this mistake of atari-ing from the wrong side which meant I was unable to kill the black group where I would have otherwise been able to):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 2nd line atari, then descent.
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 2 . . |
$$ . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

If white captures the stone then that's a sente endgame gain for black (especially if white's 1st line hane connect there was sente), and if white ignores (more likely to be best) then later black can save one stone as white is short of liberties to cut at a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 2nd line, then descent, later save stone.
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 2 . . |
$$ . . 3 a 5 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

However, if white plays atari from the 1st line, then black's descent to 3 has a much smaller follow-up (he can't save 1, only play some ataris forcing white to capture and fill in at 1):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 1st line atari, then descent.
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

And if black doesn't play the descent, the exchange of 1 for 2 is actually negative, because it means when white plays the first line hane white has a choice of cutting at a for a ko as well as simple connect at b if black blocks (though white stands to lose a lot from the ko as well as black). And if black pulls back at a instead of 5 because he is scared of the ko that's a 2 point gain for white (compared to if black hadn't played his silly wedging move of 1, and white just did the normal endgame 1st line hane, black blocked as no ko possibility, white connects and black connects).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 1st line atari, later endgame.
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . X . O O . . |
$$ . a X O 1 . . . |
$$ . 5 4 b 2 . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

So the 1st line atari has advantages if black plays next in the area (descent not sente to save stone), and if white plays next (possiblity of (fairly heavy for both) ko if black blocks). If black is building territory on the lower side and white's 1st line hane is sente then probably it will be white who plays first, and probably white doesn't want to fight the ko so it ends up not making a difference whether you played 2nd or 1st line atari, but there is an important difference between them which in other situations can be the difference between life and death, or quite a few endgame points, so it's worth learning the lessons from this shape.

P.S. There is a downside of the 1st line atari, namely the peep at 2-2, but that's not a problem here (and one reason I showed the white group extending up the side).

Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I will continue to review and analyze. Hopefully I will not make the same mistakes again!

Going back to something I said earlier, with the cheap set we now have at my office, I've now introduced Go to well over a dozen people, explained it in depth to at least 8 people, and we now have 5 people playing simultaneous 9x9 games (some are playing more than one) in an empty space (it's an open office concept).

I've started to work on my introduction, since I stumbled through it the first few times, but most everyone asked really good questions, which made it easier. I also tried introducing it by means of Atari Go to one person, but I think I may have made it more confusing than it needed to be, so we ditched it to just play 'normal' Go. I think I'll save Atari Go for younger individuals and improve my introduction for adults.

We're using Chinese scoring right now because it's dead-simple to explain. I have it on my list to learn how to score with Japanese scoring as well so that I can do it IRL without a computer or reference material.

Several people found ko's very quickly, and I've only had to introduce the concept of 'two-eyes' in one situation so far. At least 2 that I know of have starting playing online as well. The response has been enthusiastic, but I'm trying to keep it low-key so that it doesn't impact anyone's work. So far so good.

I've also gotten 3 people when they first see the board saying: "Oh, Othello! I love Othello!"

Quick update:

Recent scheduling changes have made it even more difficult to find time for full-length games, so my progress has slowed to a crawl. I've recently only had time for correspondence games, tsumego, and a bit of reading.

As far as books go, over the last several months I've completed:

- Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go - Toshiro Kageyama
- Master Play, The Style of Go Seigen - Yuan Zhou

While the Go Seigen book was over my head I enjoyed reading it for the historical aspect as well as just being introduced to different thoughts and styles.

I'm currently reading:

- Opening Theory Made Easy - Hideo Otake

With plans to re-read 'Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go' and:

- Invincible: the Games of Shusaku - John Power

I've also got a copy of 'Attack and Defense' by Akira Ishida and James Davies as it came highly recommended, but I'm waiting to read that one until I'm stronger. Does anyone have any other suggestions? (And yes, I know just playing is superior to reading but until I can carve out more time I have to keep my options flexible...)

For tsumego, I'm working through:

- Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 2

but I plan to work through it again once I finish because I'm struggling with some of the later problems — it'll take me more than a few minutes to work my way through and often my reading is faulty (not anticipating or seeing the response) leading to incorrect answers. I HAVE noticed a great improvement in my general reading skills however.

I still have 2 coworkers that are playing casual games daily as time permits. I also got around to figuring out how to do Japanese scoring manually although it STILL gives me the heebie-jeebies to move stones around while scoring even though I know the math works out.

What are you interested in reading? And the purpose?

To enjoy some more history? To see more pro games? To get stronger quicker?

All the books you've listed are excellent. But suggestions would be dependent on purpose/enjoyment.

_________________
Go Books

... all three of those sound good?

I tend to base my reading on what level of energy I have. Low energy something more enjoyable like historical games or commentary, high energy for new theory or tactics.

History and Pro Games w/Commentary : Someone else more knowledgeable in that area may be able to provide some suggestions. I've heard John Fairbairn's books are great.

If you're just looking for kifu by some excellent players, there's a link on here by Logan with the PDFs, or you can check out go4go.net (free registration required). There's also Go Games on Demand (GoGoD) if you're looking for an entire collection.

To get stronger quickly?
My personal opinion: tsumego, tesuji, games. Avoid theory, save for a couple of books. Rinse and repeat with tsumego/tesuji. I recommend at least three times per book. I usually vary it up a little, so will do tesuji when I'm feeling too tired for any more tsumego (I find tesuji/shape slightly less intensive).

Theory:

• Opening Theory Made Easy (10-20k)
• Attack and Defense (5-15k)
• Reducing Territorial Frameworks (1-5k)
• Making Good Shape or Shape Up (free online pdf) (5-15k)

Tsumego/Tesuji:

• Graded Go Problems for Beginners v2-3 (8-20k)
• 1001 Life and Death (4-12k)
• Get Strong at Tesuji (5-12k)
• Graded Go Problems for Beginners v4 (2-5k)

There's a lot more in this category, but that's a good start. Of course, you can get carried away like some of us on this forum, and soon find a collection of 50-100+ books just waiting to be read. If you are interested in more, Justin Teng has a nice review books in his Personal Go Collection

If you're looking for tsumego/tesuji suggestions, here's my recommended list (based on level)
Go Books Google Doc. No reviews though, just a list.

_________________
Go Books