(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[5.00] PW[Iwata Tatsuaki 岩田達明]PB[Chen Zude 陈祖德]WR[9p]DT[1965-10-25]C[铭心棋局03_陈祖德3 徐莹 天元围棋 "Games engraved into your heart" Chen Zude 陈祖德 9p 3 (interviewed by Xu Ying 徐莹 5p) tianyuanweiqi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYA_iO4vKs&list=PL9mIJo0rMVCNoH_4on5KsrblAzzD3eTjM&index=3 Translated by Daniel Hu 6d 20210222 Xu: Passing through the memory tunnel, sharing the player's go thinking and clever ideas, feeling the happiness, anger, grief and joy (喜怒哀乐) of go games on and off the board. Hello to our viewers I am Xu Ying. Welcome to entering with me into today's heart engraved games. Today our invited guest is still Chen Zude laoshi. Hello Chen Zude laoshi. Chen: Hello Xu: The game we will present today is a game from 1965 October 25th, in Shanghai, against the very famous Japanese 9p Iwata Tatsuaki. Then I think this game, we talk about games engraved into one's heart and carved in one's bones. We know one of the reasons (理由) which is that that day Chen laoshi beat Iwata Tatsuaki 9p which thereby (从而) rewrote Chinese Go history again. Which was the first time beating a Japanese 9p in an even game. I feel that this was an incredible breakthrough (突破) for the whole of the Chinese Go world. So Chen laoshi, the meaning of this game we have already been briefed (介绍). Then from the content or other aspects was there something that make this game particularly carved in your bones and engraved in your heart. Chen: One aspect was as you said the first time winning in an even game against a Japanese 9p. Another was that I wasn't used to Iwata's Go style. He was rather flexible and reasonable. My style was relatively active and Xu: Suited to fighting. Chen: Good at fighting. I would rather play someone strong at fighting such as Kajiwara Takeo. Xu: Just so, because Chen laoshi has previously said, that as soon he started fighting with Kajiwara, he felt very excited, but Chen laoshi was very much afraid of others using soft skill to counter his attack. Chen: Yes, because I hadn't the practice for this. When I started, I would mostly fight wildly. And Chinese players liked to fight. Xu: So you were suited to fighting. And most importantly, China didn't have a relatively flexible player to let you have the chance to practice, right? Chen: Very few. Very few. My teacher Gu Shuiru (顾水如) studied Japanese rather more. (photo of Gu Shuiru with Chen Zude as a child） Xu: Because he did go to Japan to study. Chen: But he played very few matches with me. He didn't play many games. (photo of Gu Shuiru on the left middle row watching the young Chen Zude play Go) Those who actually played, most liked fighting. Xu: But once the exchanges started with Japan, you should have exchanged moves with many Japanese Go professionals. We know that the Japanese Go style places more emphasis on theory and reason. The number who are fighting experts are relatively low. Chen: Few. Xu: Then in this game, did you feel you got some training in this aspect from them? Chen: Yes, because like such a high skill, top level players, I still played few games with them. Suguichi Masao's Go was relatively reasonable and flexible. But I only played one game with him. But other players (dang3shi1?) (not at the same level?) weren't the same. They don't give you the same sort pressure. In comparison to 9p, those 6-7p. At the time, the dan ranks were rather accurate and distinct, unlike today. Xu: True. Yes. To speak of Iwata Tatsuki 9p, I think perhaps many young players today really don't really understand him. (photo of Iwata Tatsuaki 9p) I think that many older Go enthusiasts will be quite familiar with him. But I think that everyone will still want Chen laoshi to present the background. (photo of Iwata Tatsuaki acting as head referee (裁判长) in the 56th Honinbo title match) Chen: In Japan he was already the older generation of players. Xu: This year he is 83 years old. Chen: 83, about right. His teacher was Kitani Minoru (photo of Kitani Minoru on the right analysing Shinfuseki with Go Seigen) Xu: Oh, Kitani Minoru was a big name at the very very top, an elder (老前辈). He previously taught our most familiar Kobayashi Koichi, Kato Masao, Takemiya Masaki, Cho Chikun and so on. (photo of the Kitani Minoru husband and wife at their daughter Kitani Reiko's 木谷礼子 wedding ceremony with Kobayashi Koichi) Chen: Incredible, the number of disciples he was very many, hard to count. Many years before, his disciples had a total rank of over 300dan (pro). Xu: Oh, then like Iwata Tatsuaki, he is already 83 today. At this age, did he count as Kitani's oldest disciple? Chen: Can be called the old disciple (i.e. a rank). At his level of seniority among the Kitani disciples, I consider there to be three people. (photo of Ohira Shuzo, inner left, playing a match against Kajiwara Takeo). Other than Iwata, there was another called Ohira Shuzo, one called Kada Katsuji (photo of Kada Katsuji 9p) Xu: Wow, I've discovered that those who can enter Kitani's care, definitely become famous top level players. Chen: Yes, these are were very famous at the time. But Ohira and Kada those two were Nihon Kiin players. Iwata Tatsuaki was in Nagoya (名古) not in Tokyo. Xu: Due to the splitting of the Nihon Kiin. Chen: It was called the Chubu headquarters (中部総本部) by the Japanese. Nagoya was in the middle of Japan, between Tokyo and Osaka. Xu: Oh, he it was called the middle section (chubu). Chen: All the Nihon Kiin, but it was a different examination system (及格), they had their own Go circles, a tower, it was all very good. Xu: Then did Iwata Tatsuaki count as the Chubu headquarters' number one player. Chen: Well, in any case, one of the top players. There was another good player then called Shimamura Toshihiro (島村俊廣). Xu: Oh, Shimamura Toshihiro is also very famous. Chen: Perhaps Shimamura's results were slightly better but in any case, they were the best two. Xu: Because I saw in materials which said Iwata Tatsuaki had previously won the Chubu headquarter's championship of champions five times, so from this, we can tell that his strength was truly (fei1chong2fan3xiang3?). Chen: Yes, and his skill was very clear. He was a typical representative of the Japanese Go style (本格派). Xu: But when a go player is strong in this area, perhaps he will be weaker in another area. Because you said that was a reasonable player, and met force with flexibility. Might he instead sometimes be weaker at fighting strength? Chen: It should be so. Of course, I hadn't reached that level at that time. Given it was early, in the 60s. Later, when I played them in the 70s, it felt much easier to counter them. But in the 60s I was first starting to have contact with these people, and many of their ways of play I couldn't play. Xu: You hadn't even seen them before. Chen: Because in Chinese Go, I was already clearly ahead of everyone else. Better than others by a level. So I like fighting. I use strength to push a bit unreasonably, and they still. Xu: Even unreasonable moves didn't receive punishment, right? Chen: Unreasonable moves often became reasonable, so then that's not right. Xu: So if both players aren't on the same level (起跑线 lit. starting line for running), they, especially the strongest players find it hard to improve. Chen: Yes, yes. So with Chinese players, I was often wild fighting (lit. 野战, field operations), right, and it wasn't so based on reason. And then to play against such top players in Japan, the highest at the time, the limits are different. The Go they played was very strong at principles, the Japanese style. Sometimes you had no way to apply force. They don't directly fight in contact. Their global judgement was very good, maintaining balanc, and solve all your attacks. Xu: So when your strength is lower, meeting a higher skilled opponent, then all your bad practices are undoubtedly laid bare (弊端暴露无疑). It is very easy for you to collapse. Chen: Yes, yes. Xu: Then this game was played in 1965 October. Then we remember that in 1965 April, Chen laoshi played a draw with Kajiwara Takeo. Wait, that game was also played in Shanghai, so in October was in Shanghai again. It seems as though Japanese visits before were not so frequent (平凡) Chen: The Japanese exchanges with China started in 1960. The first year they visited our China. The next year, after consultation, it was (mu4qi1?) (photo of 1961, the Japanese delegation playing a match in Beijing) One coming, one going. Once a year. For example they came in 1960, then again in 1961 and then we returned visit Japan in 1962, then they visited in 1963, we went in 1964. It was agreed to be once a year. (photo of 1961, Marshal Chen Yi watching Chen Zude reviewing a game with 安?英雄) So international matches were very few. Only once a year. Everyone would be waiting for this once. Xu: And Chinese players would be eagerly awaiting this for learning and training. But for Japanese players, because their level was clearly higher than China's, but they still so actively came, see coming two times in 1965. Chen: Not just twice in 1965. Because the trend was very good, after a few visits they felt that our Go skill had increased, and both Japan and China had a need to increase exchanges. Although it hadn't been planned, in 1965, it did increase to four times. Xu: It seems it can be said that from 1965, for China and Japan's friendly relations, Go had a very useful effect. Chen: Yes. In the 4th month, spring 1965, they sent a delegation, this was an additional one, the October one was the one agreed before, a planned project. And then in summer we visited them. Originally we visited in 1964, so we shouldn't visit. Xu: So you went again in 1965. Chen: And then another time was a female Japanese Go delegation. Xu: Aha, to speak of female Go delegation, I am interested to ask Chen laoshi a question. (photo of Ito Tomoe 伊藤友惠 5p 4th from right, the Japanese female Go delegation visiting China) How do you compare Japanese female Go level and Chinese male Go level at the time? Chen: In1965, it should be said that I had already surpassed them. I believe that our first rate players wouldn't be worse than them. That's my opinion. But there was no proof by contact. Xu: They who did they play with? Chen: They played with some of our others. Because China back then didn't have any female Go players. Ito Tomoe brought with her some amateur players. Xu: Oh, so it was just for an exchange primarily. Chen: It was primarily for an exchange, not a proper tournament, but it was still a Go delegation. So (henren?) Go had a unthinkable speed of development. Suddenly increased. Xu: It's clear that both sides placed value on these exchanges, not just Chinese players longed for it (渴望) but Japanese players also terribly yearned for it. Chen: Because on Earth, there was only this one opponent. Only playing domestically they felt was dull. Xu: Sometimes, however strong one is, they still want an opponent, or they feel very lonely. Chen: Yes, yes. Xu: Then let's see this game. How did Chen laoshi counter their taichi skills. And we'll see exactly how taichi skills manifest (表现) in a game. This game was of paying 5 points komi.] ;B[pd]C[Xu: Your first move was the star point.] ;W[cq]C[Xu: He played 3-3. Chen: This 3-3. Xu: I can say that playing 3-3 nowadays is relatively rare, not not at all, but perhaps in 100 games, maybe only one or two. Chen: Very few. Xu: But in that era, was it very popular? Chen: Rather more in the 1960s. Xu: At that time, because the 3-3 is very low. At this time, was there some research dedicated to 3-3 openings. That it is emphasising territory. Chen: It leans towards territory.] ;B[pq] ;W[dc]C[Chen: At the time, two 3-3s were rare, but one 3-3 and a 3-4 was more common. Xu: At in reality he did play like this. 11:42 Chen: This is more common. Xu: We know that opening theory is developing more and more with higher and deeper principles. Often if you are not careful in the opening, you can fall into your opponent's trap. Chen: After all, it is in the process of development.] (;B[qk]C[Xu: Black played the Chinese opening, and to speak of the Chinese opening, we can say Chen Zude most likes playing the Chinese opening right? Chen: Yes. Xu: I remember that when we discussed other games. ... Xu: So how did you think of the Chinese opening? At the time, what was the result of research on the Chinese opening. Chen: I wanted to play fast. Xu: Especially as black for attacking experts. ... Xu: Connecting the whole side with one move. Chen: When you enter, I will attack you. If you don't enter, that's not good, you can't say this is all black's. ... Xu: Of course nowadays, it has developed into the mini chinese or the deformed Chinese (at R8) and so on. These all have people playing it. Chen: Of course, these days, playing on the side is very common, but at the time in the 60s it was very rare. Normally you would always playing in the corner, including approach a corner. Xu: When you were playing this game, did you already have a very deep research of the Chinese opening. Chen: I had already played it often, starting from 1963/4. Having played it often, it caused other Chinese players to play it too. So in the summer of 1965, a delegation from China went over, and as well as me, pretty much every game was using the Chinese opening. Xu: In any case, as long as you are playing black you play the Chinese. Chen: Yes, and some players such as Huang Jinxian (黄进先) was the same as me, playing this in every game. Xu: Huang laoshi later went to Henan and coached many of our later top players. Chen: The Japanese seeing that Chinese players played this in every game called this the Chinese opening from 1965. Xu: Did the Japanese players feel that this was very hard to counter? Chen: They were not used to it. Because that game with Kajiwara Takeo, I took white and didn't play the Chinese opening, but we played several games where I played the Chinese opening as black or white. ] (;W[kq]C[Xu: We can see that when black played the Chinese opening, he took a big point extending on the side. I don't think this can be called bad right? Chen: It's good, reducing the development. He knows that if he plays elsewhere, I will extend around J4/K4 which he can't handle, so he plays first. Otherwise, it is expanding on both sides.] ;B[ce]C[Xu: Then black approached the corner. Chen: Yes.] ;W[dh]C[Xu: White two space high pincer, very popular at the time. Chen: Popular.] ;B[df]C[Xu: I've seen Chen laoshi like to choose this point here in many games. Chen: Like last time, I said I wanted to play C10, not flying B17.] ;W[fd] ;B[cj]C[Xu: He flies and you go here. Chen: The same as the last game with Suguichi Masao. Xu: Yes. In that game, Suguichi Masao also didn't disconnect but kicked and let black connect underneath. In this game, white also didn't disconnect and approached a corner. But given that white has stones on the lower side, disconnecting should also be a very severe move right? Chen: But however you disconnect, such as E11 or B12 are both fine. ... Xu: Well now we understand why white doesn't want to continue. Chen: He played away.] (;W[nc]C[Xu: Now white approached the corner over here. Chen: Yes.] ;B[jd]C[Xu: Then Chen laoshi played the 3 space high pincer. Eh, I've discovered you like playing this move. Chen: Yes, I played it many times before. ] (;W[qc]C[... Xu: But your 3 space high pincer, see when white point at 3-3, it should be said that in this right side shape, if we don't look at the upper left, just from this side, don't you feel that it isn't very satisfactory? Chen: Well Go is flexible (活 lit. alive) right? You started to build the right, but you have to always protect this side right? Go follows as you go along. For example if you start by taking influence but later if you take territory it is completely fine. I must. When the situation changes, if you still force yourself to. Xu: it is fluid (流动). Chen: At the start, it may seem you are taking territory, but later it can turn into influence. It is changing. Because he played L3, so there isn't much big development. If black still must develop the right, ] (;B[bc]C[Xu: So in the game] (;W[pc]C[Xu: But for white, I point 3-3, and black somehow didn't play, so white playing back will feel it's such a big profit. Chen: He is comfortable here. He definitely profits here.] ;B[hc]C[Chen: But I get to play here it is also not bad. Xu: That is to be able to seize this point. Chen: The vital point for attack. Xu: The stone at D12 has a high chance of passing away peacefully (无疾而终) in the ensuing attack. Chen: That is very much possible because I am very solid here. Xu: But you have lost so much in the upper right, so you must profit a lot in the upper left. Chen: I was just playing for a different opening. If I kept memorising books and joseki. Xu: A new experiment. Chen: That might instead make them feel it is easier to counter. Xu: Of course, as we introduced before, Iwata Tatsuaki was a displaying (耍) taichi skills sort of a player. Chen: Yes, yes. Xu: So his skill at the basics must have been very very good. So if you still use some normal behaviour (常态) techniques to counter him, then he can play all of them. Chen: It would be too easy for him. Xu: So Chen laoshi's fighting strategy was to throw his ideas into disarray (搅乱). Chen: You need to change something. Like this he is under attack, my target for attack. In the upper left I had superior force (优势兵力), to pay a price (代价) in the upper right, and then profit here. Xu: In fact, from this moves, we can feel that Chen laoshi was determined to draw the opponent into his a route that he was suited to. Chen: Like this, black is not necessarily good. But it's just to give him pressure and not let him relax. If it was all standard two space extensions and flies, then. Xu: Yes.] ;W[ff] ;B[eg]C[Xu: In the game white jumped and black pierced through. Then here is already. Chen: D12 is already a very lonely stone and white still has to manage this F14 group. Xu: Now it is a problem about how to make shape. ] ;W[hd]C[Xu: Now he plays here. Chen: He is making shape.] ;B[id]C[Xu: Chen laoshi I want to ask, because you had a close contact and exchanges with Marshal Chen Yi since you were young. (photo of 1961, Marshal Chen watching Chen Zude review a game with Yase? Hideo 安?英雄) (photo of Chen Yi playing Go with Suguichi Masao 衫内雅男 22:35 20220919 Well, we know that Marshal Chen Yi was terribly outstanding at leading troops to fight. Then in the many aspects of Go, did he give you any help in strategic thinking from the military? Chen: His Go, I played a lot and watched a lot. His Go was very imposing and impressive, very good at global judgement, very stylish. But after all, he wasn't born from Go professional training, Xu: Right. Chen: So in terms of technique, he didn't handle it as well. But he dealt with important events very well. This isn't easy. Very much had style. At a glance you can tell he had a very great presence, not like a small person with small presence. Xu: mm Chen: That's how it was. Xu: And for example, chairman Mao, premier Zhou, whether more or less, they all had some weiqi understanding. I think on this that Master Chen met them many times. Chen: mm, yes. (3 photos of Mao Zedong with Zhou Enlai watching opening of a sports event) The number one leaders more or less all understood or could play weiqi. For example chairman Mao ???? already started playing Go. Xu: They all were actually playing weiqi!? Chen: Playing weiqi. At Jinggang (井岗) they were already this way. Xu: Then do you know what level they were at? Chen: But I haven't played against them. But I know that chairman Mao liked to play very much. Up until latter years a bodyguard of chairman Mao who is now working in the working committee of Chinese capital funds (zhongzigongwei?), he told me that, he looked after him for 8 years, chairman Mao no longer had many hobbies. Other than swimming, it was just weiqi. Xu: Really?! Chen: Ah. Even after the liberation and Chinese wave (zhonglang?) he still played often. He liked weiqi. So chairman Mao, when investing, whether during ?? or ?? revolution strategy ???, all used playing weiqi. Xu: It's heard that when chairman Mao talked about base areas, said that weiqi's two eyes are in fact base areas. Chen: Yes, yes. Xu: And of course in weiqi, you need two eyes in order to establish a foothold. Chen: Right, right. Xu: So, see him Chen: He liked to play so he had an understanding of weiqi. Xu: Then have you ever met chairman Mao? Chen: Met, yes, many times, but never played with him (laughing). Xu: Wa, I think that to have met chairman Mao at those times was a very lucky thing. Chen: Yes, very exciting. Xu: Perhaps its the heart's dream of every person. Chen: Yes. Xu: And you didn't only meet chairman Mao, premier Zhou, but also could often with Marshal Chen and so on, be together with our country's leaders. Chen: Yes, and ate a meal with premier Zhou several times. (1 photo of Mao Zedong with Zhou Enlai watching opening of a sports event) Xu: Oh. Chen: But it was also Xu: But premier Zhou, because we all understand weiqi via joseki, newspapers, books, then you met premier Zhou with your own eye's. We all know that premier Zhou was very elegant with magnanimity. When you personally met him? Chen: Very grand. Very grand. In my memory now, they were all very extraordinary including vice premier Chen Yi (same person, multiple vice premiers), premier Zhou. Their forms in my memory are all very high. Upon meeting it was like this, before meeting them it was also like this, all the way until now, it is like this. To reach such high forms is very very hard. Xu: I feel it is extremely extraordinary. We know that today's weiqi players are very lucky. There are many competitions of many types, as well as the interest and concern of weiqi fans. At the time, the standard of this factor cannot compare to that of today. However, from Master Chen's experience, I feel that you were the most lucky at the time. And today's players would not receive this sort of reception no matter what happens. Chen: It is forever impossible for them. So I can sense my blessing. Because as a weiqi player, to receive such concern from the leaders and financial help (jieji?) is not easy at all. Causing Japanese people, those superior (gaoren?) players to tell us that we were really blessed. Xu: Very envious right? Chen: Yes, they were very envious to have this sort of leader concerned about weiqi. At the time of the 60s era. They all felt such envy. Japan values weiqi much but to see Chinese leaders be thus was. Xu: So until today, every year on January 6th, the day Marshal Chen's passed away, China's Qi Association will organise weiqi players to mourn. (photo after the China-Japan supergo finished, weiqi players gather at Marshal Chen's spirit memorial (lingqianjidian). Chen: Yes, it used to be that the China Qi Association would come with us every year to Mt Babao. To Mt Babao, every year all the way until the conversion of the China Qi Association. We got a copper statue in the China Qi Association. Xu: That's right. Chen: A very good one. Marshal Chen (laozong) only has this one sculpture in the whole of China. Xu: Just so, and I think that this has become a symbol of the content of the China Qi Association, as soon as you enter the main hall. Weiqi fans if they have the opportunity to go to Beijing, to China Qi Assocation, then you must pay respects (瞻仰 zhan1yang3). Chen: We can superbly (jingzhan?) welcome them. Xu: Yes. Filler: As a professional player, everyone has important games that have been engraved in their heart. These games are perhaps one's symbolic milestones (标志性的里程碑) as one matures (成长) (Chen Zude), or perhaps they are victories that are the pride of a lifetime, or perhaps they are the turning point in recovering (重获) confidence in a confused period (Chang Hao). They are worth players collecting at the bottom of their heart (珍藏心底), and even more worth bringing it out from one's memories, sampling it and appreciating it (品茗赏析) with go enthusiasts. Go is as life, life is as Go. Games engraved in one's heart. Make an appointment with Xu Ying. Xu: So well. From the game, we can see Master Chen's fighting strategy against Japanese players. ... Xu: Then in this position, might there perhaps be a better move than in the game? ] (;W[he]C[Chen: W needs to consider this group, to mend the shape. ... Xu: So let's look at the game. Now W attached and extended. Truly for W, he also felt it was hard to find shape. Chen: Right, right.] (;B[fb]C[Xu: But, this W move, upon your knight's move, I suddenly just feel all over my body uneasy for W. Chen: Not very comfortable. Xu: His stones, upon meeting your knight's move, the whole group seems to have become floating. We normally say that it is important to have a base (a root). This is like a duckweed (i.e. a rover). Chen: Right, yes, there may be this sort of issue. The knight's move is quite powerful at this time. ... Xu: I feel that upon this knight's move, one almost feels comfortable for B. Chen: Right. The problem is that I let W play 3 moves in the row (in the upper right), so I have to profit here. (both laugh) Chen: Right? If you play 3 moves completely and utterly breaking my territory and influence on the right. If I can't profit here, it's unacceptable. Xu: Perhaps W thought that given I have profited on the right, as long as this group doesn't get attacked too miserably Chen: Perhaps there was this sort of mentality. Xu: Then it is enough. ] (;W[fc]C[Xu: Next, W bumped here.] ;B[eb] ;W[cd]C[Xu: And then diagonal here again. Chen: These are practical moves. Xu: So crude? Chen: But if you don't play it then upon B just continuing, this stone (D17) is cut off. Xu: So it is forcefully Chen: He can't let himself be captured by B. And must also seize the initiative. Xu: Ah. Chen: Then are there any other good moves? None. Xu: This move has the feeling of an urgent sente. ] ;B[bd]C[... Xu: But for a Japanese player who values (good) shape so much and weiqi principles must feel very bad here. Chen: He must have felt he had no alternative at all.] ;W[dj]C[(Chen motioning at G12) Xu: He pressed once.] (;B[ck]C[Xu: This move is not letting him gain strength. ... Xu: Hence this move is not letting the opponent borrow strength. ... Chen: Therefore he can't continue pressing.] (;W[gh]C[Xu: Now W played a knight's move. 36:55]) (;W[dk]C[Chen: If you press again, then I will hane up. ] ;B[dl] ;W[ci]C[Xu: If he tigers down?] ;B[cm]C[Chen: You are very heavy like this now. Xu: Firstly, my E13 stone has ensured that your two groups have no way of connecting. Chen: You can't connect like this and you are already much too heavy. Upon my seizing here (C7), it affects the whole lower (left) side. This is clearly unacceptable for W. Xu: Moving like this.])) (;B[dk]C[Chen: That's right. If I play here] ;W[ck]C[Chen: His cut is rather troublesome. Because his D12 stone is very light. I want him to be heavy and not make light sabaki to deal with it. Xu: Is it that the lighter you are the more you should cross cut? Chen: Ah, cross cut is (saying) I give that side to you, and convert it into the outside. This is what I was unwilling for. Xu: Nm.])) (;W[eb]C[Chen: You can also switch a method. You can diagonal this.] ;B[fc] ;W[ed]C[Chen: Then you link home. But this is gote.] ;B[lc]C[Xu: Then the other player B will, seizing this is very big. Chen: eh, yes, and you may have more powerful techniques (motioning around K14/13) Xu: For example, moving out here. Chen: All possible. Xu: That's so, and upon attacking across, the one D12 stone will perhaps naturally die. Chen: Must fight for the initiative, taking gote is unacceptable.])) (;B[gc]C[Chen: Maybe his thinking was casual, considering that I would merely extend, letting him block down.])) (;W[gc]C[Chen: White can tiger mouth.] ;B[he]C[Xu: Tiger mouth must be met by atari once?] (;W[hb]C[Chen: And then W can continue with atari underneath. ... Chen: The other way is to atari.] ;B[gd]C[Xu: Atari then I capture. Chen: You capture. Then we see. Xu: Atari again or?] ;W[ge]C[Chen: Just atari this is also ok.] ;B[hd]C[Xu: I must connect. Chen: Yes connect.] ;W[fb]C[Chen: Then add the tiger's mouth. Xu: Oh, if B gain tiger's (J18), then I am already alive. Chen: If B continues then W tigers out at H14. Xu: I feel that this result is much better for him than the game right? Chen: Good (quietly). Xu: If it was played until this result then W has lived very cleanly and B's liberties. ] ;B[gf]C[Chen: If he played this way, I would atari.] ;W[fe]C[Xu: Atari then connect.] ;B[fg]C[Chen: Then I seal it together. Xu: It's sealing together right. But that group W has already cleanly lived right? Chen: Alive, yes its alive, but I am also thick. There is a cut here. Xu: But Master Chen, with this sort of shape, it can't count as a thick group surely? Chen: It does. If you atari out with H14 and J14, then you can't bear tiger down at J18. Xu: Oh, so after the tiger, white must hane and connect letting B out. Chen: Hane and connect doesn't work, I have the F19 attachment underneath later, then you Xu: Aah. Chen: Upon attachment underneath, your aji is too bad. Xu: True. Chen: After attachment, you can only connect. If hane, then I atari from here. Xu: Let's show it to everyone.] (;W[] ;B[ib]C[Xu: That is to say, if B has the opportunity to play here later. ] ;W[ia] ;B[ja]C[Chen: I atari Xu: atari] ;W[ha] ;B[kb]C[Chen: For example I add the tiger. Xu: Upon the tiger, firstly you are already alive. Chen: I am alive and if you ignore it, I attach.] ;W[] ;B[fa]C[Xu: Oh. There is even this technique. in this place. ... Xu: So let us focus on this shape. In this shape the attachment underneath is very severe. Chen: This is disastrous. Xu: Very very severe. Chen: This cluster (jishu?) are vital stones.] (;W[ea] ;B[eb]C[Chen: If you atari, I cut this. ... Xu: Ah so if atari here then] ;W[ga]C[Chen: you can only capture.] ;B[da]C[Xu: Then I atari again. Chen: This is unbearable for you, if you connect then I extend up E17, then you are gone. Xu: Its almost all dead. Chen: (laughs) huh, just so. Xu: (laughs) how come just from playing with what looked like such a thick group ... Chen: Therefore you can't meet with the tiger down. Xu: It turned out there was such a big danger. Chen: You can only extend your head out. Xu: Ah. Let's see.]) (;W[gb]C[... ] ;B[cb]C[Chen: If you connect, I diagonal and this group is already very bad. ... Xu: If you connect then. Chen: Just diagonal is enough. Xu: then I diagonal once. Chen: Already scooped up the profit, and you also don't know how to live. Xu: Even if it can live, it is very extreme hardship. And also how to live? Chen: Yes, can this live or not? Xu: How can this live is a question at the moment. Chen: Yes, this is too much suffering. Xu: Ah, so as soon as it meets the tiger down, it becomes uncertain. Chen: So you can only extend out after which B can simply connect to get thick.])) (;W[ib]C[Xu: That is to say that Chen: W can only extend out. And whether or not B has to connect is a question mark. Right? Because after atari H14 you can only J14. ... Chen: Weiqi is very difficult to say. Saying profit or loss is very difficult. Xu: So one can't use the feeling from a sudden glance (fist, pulling motion). Chen: Right, right, right. Xu: in order to confirm. Chen: At the time, it may seem already not bad, obtaining that profit and also live. Xu: Yes, to think of the profit (Q17) brought in (like fishing) and also living here, what did B obtain? Chen: This group (B on left) has already gotten 20 points, also not small. B's section on the right is then not smaller than your two groups on the lower side. Right? These two moves compared to these two. And I can play D6 first with the initiative. So this game is also difficult to judge. Xu: So perhaps Iwata Tatsuaki, having considered this sort of variation, in the end rejected it. Chen: Also possible, possible. Don't know, because I haven't asked him how he was thinking. Xu: Eh that's right. Touching on the two side's exchanges, at the time, when you finished a game with a Japanese player, you were sure to review it right? Chen: Yes, though sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't necessarily review. Because we played Xu: Too late. Chen: Yes, such as the game I played with Suguichi Masao could be counted as finishing late, and there was still another game. Our one game, each player 4 1/2 hours, 9, including overtime could be 10 hours, would be too late. Xu: Then if there was time for some exchanges, that is between Master Chen and a Japanese player. Because some players could speak simple Japanese. Sometimes they would use hand gestures. Sometimes it would be like this. For example, if I can't speak even one sentence of Japanese, then I might play variations on the board and say bad (waving hand), good (thumbs up). Chen: Right, right. It was thus. Xu: (Laughing, with thumbs up) like this. Chen: Playing weiqi is really something everyone can understand. Xu: Without national boundaries. Chen: Without national boundaries, no. Hence using hands to indicate good or bad they could also understand. Xu: But at that time you had also started learning Japanese right? Chen: Perhaps. We spoke better than them. The Japanese could only say hao4, bu hao4 (it should be hao3). (both laughing) Xu: Such as you are first president. Our 2nd Master Wang Runan, 3rd Master Hua Yigang, their Japanese is all very good. It was all learnt from that time was it? Chen: Yes, all early on, around the 60s, or 60s to 70s. Because back then, the only opponent was Japan. In order to read books and have exchanges, would learn (muttered). Xu: Mm. Chen: Hh. Xu: Therefore that sort of scene of exchanges must have been very amusing. Chen: (chuckling) Right.] (;B[md]C[Chen: I might move here. To defend here or somewhere. Xu: More active. ]) (;B[dn]C[Chen: Or even immediately playing here? It isn't impossible. After you atari and extend, I can attach in. Xu: Ah. mm. ]))) (;W[gd]C[Chen: Connect is met by descending down. Xu: Watch out that W can't connect here. Chen: Though connect isn't completely impossible] ;B[hb]C[Chen: Meets the descent. Xu: But what if descend?] ;W[hf]C[Chen: Then you clamp and it isn't absolutely bad. Xu: At least there is eyespace after descending at G18. Chen: And B has no development on the top. W is satisfied to just get out here. Later W can come to L17 or K18 and can still counterattack B. Xu: Oh, perhaps this is better for him than the game.]))) (;W[hc]C[Xu: If white also plays here then what?] ;B[qd]C[Chen: Then I might not. I might block from this side. Xu: You might block here. Chen: You don't have to block the other side. Xu: Because we can see white already has a stone at H17. Chen: This side already isn't worth much, so I will ignore him. Xu: But might you feel that the position of K16 is not ideal? Chen: Well, relatively but your H17 is also not ideal right? Xu: Right, so to have exchanged it for H17 is a profit. Chen: Your shape is cramped. Xu: mmm. Chen: So this Go is hard to say, each has advantages and disadvantages.])) (;B[pc]C[Chen: Then for example, blocking down is ok.] ;W[qd] ;B[pe]C[Chen: The black extend is pretty much sente. Xu: So play a joseki and black can snatch the upper left. Chen: Then snatch that, it is also sente. Xu: Snatching flying into the corner. Chen: But after you have flown, he plays H17, and your joseki isn't necessarily good. Your fly is met with his small fly, reducing your upper side.])) (;W[cd]C[Xu: But in this position to 3 space high pincer, if I play here now, will you answer? Chen: Not necessarily.] ;B[oc]C[Xu: Maybe you will kick this. Chen: Yeah. Perhaps kick and jump to attack. Xu: In other words, I have a double wing (两翼张开) formation. And you have approached inside at O17.] (;W[bh]C[Chen: Now you have to disconnect] ;B[ff]C[Chen: If you play here, I then jump up. You also can't immediately attack me, but I attack you first on that side.]) (;W[cg]C[Chen: Both are fine.] ;B[bd]C[Chen: If you play here, I can hane and atari.] ;W[bc] ;B[dd] ;W[cc]C[Chen: And you don't have a connection underneath.]) (;W[nd]C[Xu: That is to say, white must extend.] ;B[pf]C[Xu: Then I jump. Chen: Like this my right side configuration (配置) is not bad.]))) (;W[bh] ;B[cc]C[Chen: I am going to attach the corner as I said last time.] ;W[cb] ;B[dd] ;W[ec] ;B[bc]C[Chen: Once I go into the corner I am completely alive. Xu: You immediately live in the corner.] ;W[jc] (;B[ff]C[Chen: If he plays there, I can for example jump up. If you keep running I can extend on the left. ] ;W[cl]C[Xu: But what he pincers you?] ;B[ej] ;W[fh]C[Xu: If you run, I run with you?]) (;B[ei]C[Chen: But black doesn't have to jump, black can attack with this jump (DH: this is not normally can't jump but fly press)]) (;B[co]C[Chen: If you don't jump and extend here it is also fine. Because black is already alive. ... Chen: Completely alive, it is already alive like this. You can't kill it, there is eyespace from B14 to C16, and there is the B18 turn. It's already. I can also extend here.] (;W[] ;B[bb]C[Xu: Because see, if black turns at some time, this is completely alive. ]) (;W[ep]C[Chen: If you defend.] (;B[dm]C[Xu: Just fly]) (;B[dl]C[Chen: Or fly here, they are both fine. Xu: mm Chen: Playing like this, it is making something in the lower left, and your two moves at B12, D12 are still isolated stones. Essentially I have on two sides. This side was originally white's influence. I have already occupied two positions (阵地).]))))) (;AE[qk][cq][pq]AB[dp]C[Xu: The reason was that you used to like to play opposing star points. But as other people knew you had this style, many people disrupted your plans. So you had no choice, right? Chen: Because I felt that when playing opposing star points, I could bring my style into play more easily. But if they disrupted this, you have to think about how to play parallel (平行) fuseki well.]) (;W[po]C[Xu: And we can see, even if you approach in here, you leeway (余地) for extending to R7 is very small. ]) (;W[qf]C[Xu: If you you approach in here.] ;B[qe] ;W[pf] ;B[nd] ;W[qi]C[Xu: You can only extend two spaces from a two stone wall. Chen: Yes, just so.]) (;W[ok]C[Chen: Because when I play this, he (Kajiwara) found it hard to counter, so a couple of games he even played here. He considered this the vital point, the most important. ... Xu: This is a reduction technique, but to play this in the opening? Chen: He didn't know where was good to play, so he played here from the start. Xu: So many matured things are tried out repeatedly and in the process they improve. Chen: This is very interesting. Though you can't say this move is unplayable, but it means that he also didn't know where to play was good. Xu: mm. Chen: Unlike now, where there are many methods to counter it. Xu: In fact, just supposing he plays here, you also can't say it's bad. Chen: Bad, bad. In fact, we can't say it's bad now. We also can't say this. Xu: So I feel that the fascination with Go is that wherever you play as long as you think it is reasonable, as long as you like, they can all be tried out. Chen: Yes, yes.] ;AE[ok][qk][pq]AW[oj]AB[qj][pp]C[Xu: Commonly in this shape, it is also the cap to reduce them.])) (;B[qo]C[Chen: If you immediately defend an open corner as normal, this is relatively slow. They extend on the side around K3 or somewhere, and then if you extend on the right side. Before, it used to be approach open corners then open corners, but I directly moved to the side.]))