Joseki Continuation Question

Simba · #1

Been experimenting with a new joseki (I'm white), and was taken a little off-guard by my opponent's move 10 in the below diagram. It looks a bit crude to do this, but the best response isn't obvious to me. Any ideas? I'm not finding many results for white 9 in professional games but it's documented on Josekipedia, and looks fairly reasonable to me instinctively. Perhaps it's wrong but I'm not convinced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Joseki start. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 6 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 4 3 0 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Continuations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc1 Continuation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 2 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like this one; I'd be happy to play from here as white. The thickness I've got feels like enough, and I finish in sente (or most likely can fix somewhere around P13 depending on the board).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc1 Continuation 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 6 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 9 X O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 2 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But if black just plays P18 directly like this, I'm not a fan. The top is totally sealed off but black has sente to play P13. And ladder breaker stuff. I don't like this.

Any better ideas that I might be missing?

Obviously there's the bulge at Q15 followed by connecting at O15 for white, but it feels crude. I can't read a good result for white if he begins with R15.

DrStraw · #2

Depending on the rest of the board this seems playable. After :w5:

black must live in the corner. 'a' does not work because white 'b'. If 'b' does work (I did not read it all out) then all white has to do is block in sente. If the black group on the left ends up with too much influence in the game and black lives in the corner then this is not so good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Joseki start. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hyperpape · #3

Simba wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc1 Continuation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 2 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 9 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like this one; I'd be happy to play from here as white. The thickness I've got feels like enough, and I finish in sente (or most likely can fix somewhere around P13 depending on the board).

I realize I'm super weak compared to you, but I'm not seeing how this is thickness unless white immediately reinforces. After the atari at a, White has to give black the ponnuki or tolerate a lot of potential black shenanigans. On an empty board, I don't think there's any reasonable local move for B, but it does seem like it's a lot of aji.

Simba · #4

DrStraw wrote:

Depending on the rest of the board this seems playable. After :w5:

black must live in the corner. 'a' does not work because white 'b'. If 'b' does work (I did not read it all out) then all white has to do is block in sente. If the black group on the left ends up with too much influence in the game and black lives in the corner then this is not so good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Joseki start. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought about this, but I was a little worried about black attaching like this after white has already committed to drawing back, i.e. using O16 as a probe before choosing to attach. Agree that the variation you show is good for white, but it seems a bit too passive by black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Joseki start. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hyperpape wrote:

I realize I'm super weak compared to you, but I'm not seeing how this is thickness unless white immediately reinforces. After the atari at a, White has to give black the ponnuki or tolerate a lot of potential black shenanigans. On an empty board, I don't think there's any reasonable local move for B, but it does seem like it's a lot of aji.

Agree; as I mentioned, I'd probably play P13 immediately, but depending on other stones something else might be possible. In the other variation though, it's black's turn and he can play the atari here before white even has chance to defend it.

Uberdude · #5

White 9 doesn't look like a joseki to me, and there's only 1 hit in ps.waltheri from Honinbo Shusai who can play non-joseki overplays and weird moves because he's so strong and can get away with it against weaker players. But anyway I agree with DrStraw that giving way with p15 to blight :b8:

is probably the more prudent way to play. Compare with the crude push throughs in similar situations with 4-4 double approach josekis.

Joseki Continuation Question

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