My modern way of joseki learning:

Dont learn the old way.

If you play online you get wrecked by players with up to date josekis.

Only play 4-4 yourself to limit the josekis you have to learn.

Only approach 3-4 low to limit the josekis you have to learn (low is easier than high, you never need high)

Invade 3-3 early most of the time to limit josekis you have to learn. And learn the few times you have to play an approach move instead (very few times). You also learn some shinogi techniques this way, because you have to .

Review every single one of your games with leela zero (ELF) and learn the way you should have played your josekis in the first place.

If your opponent plays something obscure (not 4-4 or 3-4) enter 3-3 and review after the game (works 99% of the obscure games)

If your opponent plays tengen and mirror go, play mirror go yourself and take the free win and the laugh.

This way you learn modern fuseki and joseki fast and easy.

(this method is good enough for stable 2 Dan Fox )

for the fun of it anti tengen mirror - mirror go watch the josekis
(I start to play unreflected mirror go myself after move 64 , may the komi be with me)

If I could find a local human, or a program in the alternative, that could and would TEACH me along the lines of that guidance, I'd love to give it a shot!

Meaning not the slightest disrespect to either you or your suggestions, a list of rules is not teaching. "Just go do it" is also not teaching.

I want to be TAUGHT, by either humans or programs that know more than I do. Humans when possible.

And I'm happy to TEACH anyone who knows less than I do.

Assuming there actually are any people that ignorant...



TCS

I am a teacher by the way (not Go, obviously), so dont teach me on teaching

For a more serious answer:
You asked about a way to LEARN faster in your last post.
I just wanted to reinstate how important it is in my opinion to learn modern (AI) josekis.

If you want a good teacher I recommend Yunguseng Dojang (, although it is online and not local)

I wasn't trying to teach you. I was just pontificating about my view, which is a very different thing, and is an activity at which I generally succeed!



To be effective, a teaching relationship requires the consent of both the teacher and the student. But, since you're a teacher, you already know that.

For this purpose, online could work OK. As long as it's a TEACHING relationship, and not a PONTIFICATING relationship!



Thx!

TCS

Sorry, non sequitur, logical fallacy.

( Teachers are only human. And to err is human.
Obviously, a bad teacher has a lot of room for improvement;
but even the "best" teachers in the world can still improve.
The improvement path is endless. )

Reminds me of a time in the 1980s when I “had” a guru (I didn’t seek him, it simply happened, and thankfully he was a “no name guru”, not somebody to whom people flocked. His name was Harold Clayton, if you know about his whereabouts, I’d be thankful to know. I fear, however, that he isn’t alive anymore, though, as he was quite ill the last time I saw him.) … anyway, one thing he told me was this:I always remembered that statement, and it was very helpful for me when I was a teacher/lecturer/instructor for design & print media production twenty years later.

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

Hi Tom,My teacher also said, "To teach is to learn."

The proverb is probably a stub:

"My teacher also said, to teach is to learn ... how to cope with the students."



As you can see, not only my go skills are lacking.

An example how I study joseki with ELF:

https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15862&p=233429#p233429

OK, that DOES look like an interesting program (ELF).

Cost?

Thx!

TCS

How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out it's own sequence?

Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home.

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.

I see your point, but I don't feel it answered the "how do you learn from it" part.

At the SDK level people are playing much less randomly than rank beginners, but most of them have gotten into ruts, bad habits such that they actually are attracted to inferior plays. (This happens to almost everybody, it's not a big deal.) So at that level it can be a great help to find out what good moves are that you never even thought about, and what moves are bad that you thought were obvious. OC, it would be even better to have a human teacher who plays as well as Leela or Elf or AQ, but bots are going to raise the general level of play tremendously.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Watch pre-school children. They are the best learners in the world.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I don't think adults can just imitate pre-school children and learn at the same pace. Young children can listen to a story a few times and then repeat it word by word. Give them a picture of 50 dinosaurs, and after a short time they will be able to recognize them all. More generally, young children are much better than adults at memorizing data without structure. I suspect that's the reason why children generally learn go with less effort than adults: their brain just registers good shapes and good sequences.

Adults prefer to learn structured information. However, in go, a large part of the learning process consists in rote memorization. We need to put good shapes and good sequences in our brain, and take out bad shapes and bad sequences. Children can do that efficiently; adults can still do that but are slower.

Hi jlt,

Yes. Off topic:

You are right.



Yeah, well, the information to be gleaned from top bots is structured. It lacks verbal explanation, however, and that is a problem for adults.

Children pick things up easily. Adults also pick things up, but less easily. Still, we do pick things up.

One important way that children learn is through play. And as adults we can also play around with go positions. Allow me to quote a chess grandmaster on playing around.


(Emphasis mine) From http://rlpchessblog.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... rtesy.html

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.