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Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13970		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
My modern way of joseki learning:

Dont learn the old way.

If you play online you get wrecked by players with up to date josekis.

Only play 4-4 yourself to limit the josekis you have to learn.

Only approach 3-4 low to limit the josekis you have to learn (low is easier than high, you never need high)

Invade 3-3 early most of the time to limit josekis you have to learn. And learn the few times you have to play an approach move instead (very few times). You also learn some shinogi techniques this way, because you have to :twisted:.

Review every single one of your games with leela zero (ELF) and learn the way you should have played your josekis in the first place.

If your opponent plays something obscure (not 4-4 or 3-4) enter 3-3 and review after the game (works 99% of the obscure games)

If your opponent plays tengen and mirror go, play mirror go yourself and take the free win and the laugh.

This way you learn modern fuseki and joseki fast and easy. ;-)

(this method is good enough for stable 2 Dan Fox :lol: )
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
for the fun of it anti tengen mirror - mirror go :lol: watch the josekis ;-)
(I start to play unreflected mirror go myself after move 64 :twisted:, may the komi be with me)
Author:  Chaosrider2808 [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
If I could find a local human, or a program in the alternative, that could and would TEACH me along the lines of that guidance, I'd love to give it a shot!

Meaning not the slightest disrespect to either you or your suggestions, a list of rules is not teaching. "Just go do it" is also not teaching.

I want to be TAUGHT, by either humans or programs that know more than I do. Humans when possible.

And I'm happy to TEACH anyone who knows less than I do.

Assuming there actually are any people that ignorant...

:cool:

TCS
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
I am a teacher by the way (not Go, obviously), so dont teach me on teaching :twisted:

For a more serious answer:
You asked about a way to LEARN faster in your last post.
I just wanted to reinstate how important it is in my opinion to learn modern (AI) josekis.

If you want a good teacher I recommend Yunguseng Dojang (, although it is online and not local)
Author:  Chaosrider2808 [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
I wasn't trying to teach you. I was just pontificating about my view, which is a very different thing, and is an activity at which I generally succeed!

:twisted:

To be effective, a teaching relationship requires the consent of both the teacher and the student. But, since you're a teacher, you already know that.

For this purpose, online could work OK. As long as it's a TEACHING relationship, and not a PONTIFICATING relationship!

:cool:

Thx!

TCS
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I am a teacher... so dont teach me on teaching
Sorry, non sequitur, logical fallacy. :study:

( Teachers are only human. And to err is human. :)
Obviously, a bad teacher has a lot of room for improvement;
but even the "best" teachers in the world can still improve.
The improvement path is endless. )
Author:  Bonobo [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Gomoto wrote:
I am a teacher […], so dont teach me on teaching […]

Reminds me of a time in the 1980s when I “had” a guru (I didn’t seek him, it simply happened, and thankfully he was a “no name guru”, not somebody to whom people flocked. His name was Harold Clayton, if you know about his whereabouts, I’d be thankful to know. I fear, however, that he isn’t alive anymore, though, as he was quite ill the last time I saw him.) … anyway, one thing he told me was this:
Quote:
The student is the teacher’s teacher.
I always remembered that statement, and it was very helpful for me when I was a teacher/lecturer/instructor for design & print media production twenty years later.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Tom,
Quote:
The student is the teacher’s teacher.
My teacher also said, "To teach is to learn."
「三人行，必有我師焉。」(*)




_____
(*) Confucius, not some fake Chinese proverb. :blackeye:
Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
The proverb is probably a stub:

"My teacher also said, to teach is to learn ... how to cope with the students." ;-)



As you can see, not only my go skills are lacking.
Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
An example how I study joseki with ELF:

https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15862&p=233429#p233429
Author:  Chaosrider2808 [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
OK, that DOES look like an interesting program (ELF).

Cost?

Thx!

TCS
Author:  Katharsys [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Gomoto wrote:
Dont learn joseki.

Review your games with Leela Zero / ELF and learn fuseki instead. This way you will learn the correct josekis for the whole board positions. You also will have to learn only the relevant josekis for the quite small number of good recent fusekis (and some refutations for the bad ones that should not be played anymore. :twisted: )



How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out it's own sequence?
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out its own sequence?
Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home. :blackeye:

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.
Author:  Katharsys [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Quote:
How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out its own sequence?
Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home. :blackeye:

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.



I see your point, but I don't feel it answered the "how do you learn from it" part.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Katharsys wrote:
Gomoto wrote:
Dont learn joseki.

Review your games with Leela Zero / ELF and learn fuseki instead. This way you will learn the correct josekis for the whole board positions. You also will have to learn only the relevant josekis for the quite small number of good recent fusekis (and some refutations for the bad ones that should not be played anymore. :twisted: )



How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out it's own sequence?


At the SDK level people are playing much less randomly than rank beginners, but most of them have gotten into ruts, bad habits such that they actually are attracted to inferior plays. (This happens to almost everybody, it's not a big deal.) So at that level it can be a great help to find out what good moves are that you never even thought about, and what moves are bad that you thought were obvious. :) OC, it would be even better to have a human teacher who plays as well as Leela or Elf or AQ, but bots are going to raise the general level of play tremendously. :)
Yogi Berra wrote:
You can observe a lot by just watching.
:D
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Katharsys wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Quote:
How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out its own sequence?
Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home. :blackeye:

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.



I see your point, but I don't feel it answered the "how do you learn from it" part.


Watch pre-school children. :) They are the best learners in the world.
Author:  jlt [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
I don't think adults can just imitate pre-school children and learn at the same pace. Young children can listen to a story a few times and then repeat it word by word. Give them a picture of 50 dinosaurs, and after a short time they will be able to recognize them all. More generally, young children are much better than adults at memorizing data without structure. I suspect that's the reason why children generally learn go with less effort than adults: their brain just registers good shapes and good sequences.

Adults prefer to learn structured information. However, in go, a large part of the learning process consists in rote memorization. We need to put good shapes and good sequences in our brain, and take out bad shapes and bad sequences. Children can do that efficiently; adults can still do that but are slower.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi jlt,

Yes. :) Off topic:
Children ( before teenage years ) can learn multiple languages fluently, natively, with no accents. ( I don't know the world record for the max number of natively fluent accent-less languages a child can speak... )
Try it with adults, say over age 35, to learn a completely foreign language.
( Especially if they had zero previous exposure to anything other than their native language. )
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
jlt wrote:
I don't think adults can just imitate pre-school children and learn at the same pace.

You are right. :)

Quote:
Adults prefer to learn structured information.


Yeah, well, the information to be gleaned from top bots is structured. It lacks verbal explanation, however, and that is a problem for adults.

Children pick things up easily. Adults also pick things up, but less easily. Still, we do pick things up. :)

One important way that children learn is through play. And as adults we can also play around with go positions. Allow me to quote a chess grandmaster on playing around. :)

Nigel Davies wrote:
It really doesn’t matter what you study, the important thing is to use this as a training ground for thinking rather than trying to assimilate a mind-numbing amount of information. In these days of a zillion different chess products this message seems to be quite lost, and indeed most people seem to want books that tell them what to do. The reality is that you’ve got to move the pieces around the board and play with the position. Who does that? Amateurs don’t, GMs do.

(Emphasis mine) From http://rlpchessblog.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... rtesy.html
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