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 Post subject: Blind spot of the Kobayashi and Low Chinese.
Post #1 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:20 am 
Dies in gote

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I'm currently learning how to properly utilize the low Chinese and Kobayashi openings, partly because I like them both and also because if one fails, I can easily transition to the other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Case 1.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . c . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point, if W plays A I'll naturally land the Kobayashi with b, and if W denies it with c, I can complete the low chinese on D and keep the possibility of taking the lower left corner with 3-3.

This is how most games go and I'm content with how it's working for me, however, there is one variation I'm not sure how to answer against, as all responses leave me a bit unsatisfied.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Case 1.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When this happens I'm at a loss at what to do. I can't finish the kobayashi at a because the right corner will be attacked / pressed low, even though W still has an approach to answer. Obviously I can't finish the low chinese, and enclosing feels a bit submissive. How would you proceed after this?

I know it might look like I'm overthinking this, but Fuseki is a weak part of my play and I feel the way to improve goes through understanding how openings work in detail, and having at least a skeleton of a game plan in the beginning.

Thank you very much!

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 Post subject: Re: Blind spot of the Kobayashi and Low Chinese.
Post #2 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:33 am 
Lives in gote

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My first instict would be: White didn't answer the approach on the left. So it seems reasonable to try to get sente to punish him for it.
One possible example to explain the idea:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The lower right joseki is just the first thing that came to mind, because it is safe to assume that black gets sente with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Blind spot of the Kobayashi and Low Chinese.
Post #3 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:26 am 
Lives in gote
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p2501 wrote:
My first instict would be: White didn't answer the approach on the left. So it seems reasonable to try to get sente to punish him for it.One possible example to explain the idea:


I`d second this, if only because it directly relates to something I was reading in Mimura`s Fuseki Bible yesterday. He says that the keima kakari to 4-4 is more urgent than a keima kakari to a 3-4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c From Mimura Tomoyasu
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He says that the double approach is severe and that White`s stone is weaker than it looks. One continuation he gives is this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c From Mimura Tomoyasu
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 O . . 9 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This has many difficult possibilities, says Mimura.

Obviously, this example is not a Mini-Chinese or Kobayashi, and I`d be extremely cautious before asserting that the keima to hoshi is always more serious than the keima to 3-4, but still it seems to support your plan, p2501.

_________________
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:

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 Post subject: Re: Blind spot of the Kobayashi and Low Chinese.
Post #4 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:31 am 
Judan

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First thought: making Chinese shape in answer to the pincer feels bad. The aim of the Chinese opening is to make a framework around the 3-4 in the lower right corner and white's pincer frustrates that. Instead I would continue with some joseki in the lower left (simple 3-3 is fine) or if tenuki make a solid shimari in the lower right, not a loose move.

Second: if White A you can also make the Chinese opening. This is popular with pros recently and is my new favourite opening.

Third: of course white can answer your approach with his own. It's a feisty way to play, stopping black from dictating the flow of the game. As he tenukid your approach it's natural to double approach his corner. He will look to take sente to play again against your 3-4. You could also answer his approach, the 2 space high pincer feels nice to me. Welcome to Go, there are many ways to play this game :) .

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 Post subject: Re: Blind spot of the Kobayashi and Low Chinese.
Post #5 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:07 am 
Lives in gote

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In this situation, the most important thing is to be flexible in your openings -- letting your stones unfold naturally. White can prevent a large moyo game as early as move four by approaching the 3-4 stone. For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I've heard from some professionals that taking an empty corner is worth about 1-2 points more than approaching 3-4/4-5/5-3 corners. But it's very difficult to demonstrate this in a game unless one is of high-dan strength or higher.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As for your game diagram, approaching at A is the most common continuation. White offers Black a double approach, so Black kindly accepts. After this, pincering White's approach stone at B-D are also common and fine ways to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can also approach in a number of other ways (A-C).

For fun I'll show one more possible way it could continue...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Possible game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White approaches high and Black attaches on the outside to continue trying to build a moyo on the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc cont. 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . 4 c . . . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . b . . . . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w3: Black decides on :b4: instead of the more common A, knowing A will end in gote and give White sente to reply first to the left corner, such as B or C.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc cont. 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X 9 . 8 7 . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 2 . . . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A common double-approach joseki begins. Black chooses 6 (instead of 10) to continue with his idea of building the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc cont. 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O 4 X O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 5 . O X . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . 9 . O . O X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and quickly a fight emerges. We have a unique & fun game position.


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 Post subject: Re: Blind spot of the Kobayashi and Low Chinese.
Post #6 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:59 am 
Lives with ko

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Just a thought... Since the idea is to complete the opening with R9 after making the approach, aiming to attack a White approach to your bottom-left, why not simply pincer the stone? You can aim to play around R9 in the aftermath. You can consider it miai with the double approach at C6.

I find it's easier to keep track of these positions if I keep the original, planned order in mind. I also see it as an opportunity to place my stones more efficiently. Maybe after your pincer and the ensuing development, you'll find R9 is too overconcentrated and will make a stable shimari with your hoshi on the top right instead.

It's important to remember that your opponent always has a say too (not quite equal, hence the komi), and that there are definite limits to fixed patterns. ;-)

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Post #7 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:26 pm 
Honinbo
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Search of 50,744 pro games. a: 14. b: 8. c: 4. d: 3. e: 2. f: 1. g: 1.
(My feeling is from kyu to mid-dan levels, it doesn't matter much. The game is not decided here -- not even close.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b c . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . f , . . . |
$$ | . . g . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by EdLee was liked by 2 people: emeraldemon, thirdfogie
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