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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #21 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:16 am 
Honinbo

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Online tournaments have been a thing for awhile, but in the scope of things are still relatively new. I guess the coronavirus has aided in the increase of serious tournaments held over the Internet.

I'm confident organizational improvements will come. In the meantime, it's unfortunate that these types of incidents happen.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #22 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:05 am 
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It's a pity that the move was not corrected, is this a contender for the most bizarre professional game record ever?

I believe this kind of situation in online games should be managed the same way as the dropping of a stone on board during in-person games. What are the rules for this kind of incident in professional tournaments in Asia?

In Europe I can see that the relevant provisions (https://www.eurogofed.org/egf/tourrules.htm) are:

Quote:
2.Making a move A stone is played quickly as near as possible to its intended intersection. Once the stone touches the board, there should be minimal physical movement required to place the stone on its intended intersection, and then it should be released straightaway. Once the stone is played, any removal of the opponent's stones is carried out. A move is completed by pressing the clock with the same hand that played the move. Once the clock is pressed, the hand used must promptly be removed from the clock.

4: Position disturbance If the position is disturbed accidently, or if a position was recorded incorrectly during an adjournment, and the players cannot simply correct it, then the referee can apply the following procedures, in order:
correct the position.
continue with the position as is.
unwind the game to a previous agreed position.
award a loss to the player who disturbed the position.
cancel the game and start afresh with possibly reduced time limits.


In an online game some of them are not relevant (e.g. Once the stone is played, any removal of the opponent's stones is carried out. A move is completed by pressing the clock with the same hand that played the move. Once the clock is pressed, the hand used must promptly be removed from the clock.) Probably pressing the clock may be interpreted as "player validates his move".

I believe during today's game it should have been judged as "Position disturbance" and then the referee could have corrected the position.

In future important on-line games maybe a solution will be to introduce an additional "press the clock" step which will make it more similar with in-person play and should help with these contentious situations.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #23 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:31 am 
Judan

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Lucian wrote:
In future important on-line games maybe a solution will be to introduce an additional "press the clock" step which will make it more similar with in-person play and should help with these contentious situations.


I'd have them play on a real board with a real local clock, and another human (behind a screen wearing a mask if needed for covid) transmits their move to the server, and plays the opponent's move on the real board. This would eliminate many of the problems of online play around misclicks, lag and technical faults. Once the player has placed his stone and pressed his clock on time his job is done and he can't lose on time or otherwise be disadvantaged by technical problems. If there is a 10 second lag that just means both players get 10 extra seconds to think, much better than spoiling a game with a lag loss on time or misclick. The scribes would need to practice their important job to reduce chance of them making a mistake (and being a strong go player will help), but if they do other people watching will notice and correct, without either player losing.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #24 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:50 am 
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Just coming to this thread and reading about another online tournament problem, let me thank Uberdude and Lucian for their brainstorming of what to consider! More reflection of possibilities and solutions will be necessary but yours is a good start.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #25 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:55 pm 
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Poor shin jinseo, losing by half point the second game. He had a good lead but he made a mistake with 210(better on the right of 210). Ke jie saw the mistake and after he played well. It was so close but it was too late. After the mouse-pad problem losing by 0.5 is painful.
Shin is still very busy with games coming, hope it will not affect his mind.
Fighting shin jinseo !!!

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #26 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:48 am 
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Ke Jie won Samsung Cup for the 4th time and 8th international title overall. It's really unfortunate what happened in game 1, but he still proved himself on the biggest stage again.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #27 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:07 am 
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Ke jie played a very territorial game, it was very interesting ^^

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #28 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:39 am 
Judan

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It's not often you see stones captured in a cranes nest in a professional game. This was an interesting position where Shin made a slight mistake, according to my phone AI. There's some interesting pros and cons. Shin captured at a, which sets up a follow-up at b to reduce the corner. Bot prefers c, which means nlack can capture some stones on the side, which is not small and connects his groups, but means white gets extra thick in the centre. Judging which is better is a tough call now, but Ke Jie DID very nicely use the aji of escaping with the cranes nest stones to get some forcing moves in the centre which worked very nicely with making his centre group live later after he'd taken lots of territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . B O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . , . . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . b . O X O . . . . . . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #29 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:43 am 
Honinbo

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The mouse-issue was unfortunate. In a way, it's good for Shin Jinseo to lose in the end, because maybe it could help lead to better preparation for these kinds of issues.

Anyway, we are still somewhat new to Internet tournaments, so hopefully they continue to improve.

It's nice to see Ke Jie still having some good results, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #30 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:51 am 
Judan

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Kirby wrote:
The mouse-issue was unfortunate. In a way, it's good for Shin Jinseo to lose in the end, because maybe it could help lead to better preparation for these kinds of issues.


We said this a few months ago with Park Junghwan's mouse problems and timeout in the Nongshim cup!

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #31 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:25 am 
Oza

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Quote:
We said this a few months ago with Park Junghwan's mouse problems and timeout in the Nongshim cup!


That's not really comparable, because a sensible decision was made there to replay the game.

Without knowing precisely whether there was an element of direct fault by Sin Chin-seo, my first impression was that he was harshly done by. I would have expected the opponent, a referee or the sponsor to intervene and offer/suggest a replay.

However, what may have intervened here is that old chestnut of oriental 'face'. The Pak-Fan incident was Korea-China with a Korean sponsor and a technical mistake on the Korean side. The Sin-Ke incident was likewise Korea-China with a Korean sponsor and a technical mistake on the Korean side. I can easily imagine the Korean side thought it would be too much loss of face to ask for a replay again. And the Chinese side would have had the empathy not to suggest a replay and thus cause a loss-of-face dilemma.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #32 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:50 am 
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There's a brief interview with Shin Jinseo here: https://cyberoro.com/news/news_view.oro ... num=527199

I guess there's some sort of button you can press to object/appeal if there's a problem, and they asked him why he didn't use it after the mouse issue. He replied that he went back and forth over whether he should do it or not, but in the end figured that there was nothing he could really do about it.

Later in the interview, he also mentioned that going forward, he'll have more chances for tournaments like this, and he'd put forth more effort and try harder.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #33 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:53 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:
The mouse-issue was unfortunate. In a way, it's good for Shin Jinseo to lose in the end, because maybe it could help lead to better preparation for these kinds of issues.


We said this a few months ago with Park Junghwan's mouse problems and timeout in the Nongshim cup!


Yeah, so hopefully, organizers for the Nongshim cup will prepare better for their next tournament, as well. I'd imagine that no matter what precautions and rules are put in place, there'll always be exceptional scenarios. But over time as those things happen, improvements will eventually come.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #34 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:39 am 
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According to Chinese news reports, the rules for this year's Samsung Cup mandate that a misclick be considered a legitimate move.

On Shin's misclick, Ke Jie commented after the match that he would have granted the undo if Shin had asked. You can read his comment in full at https://sports.sina.com.cn/go/2020-11-0 ... 1642.shtml (in Chinese).

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #35 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:12 am 
Judan

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From Stephen Hu at https://www.facebook.com/groups/go.igo. ... 6122906514

Quote:
Just relaying part of the post-match interviews with Shin Jinseo and Ke Jie, on the subject of Game 1 (my personal thoughts in the comments below):

------------------------------------------------------------------
SHIN JINSEO: I wasn't aware of the (trackpad sensitivity) issue which caused the misclick - I only realized the problem after it happened, which was already too late. I feel that both the Hankuk Kiwon and myself should have foreseen this before the match.

I was shocked at first, but ultimately decided to carry on without lodging any disputes. After all, misclicks are considered as mistakes on the goban.

I really fancied clinching this title, having prepared myself rigorously since the Round of 32 - so I do want to apologize to my fans for the eventual outcome. I am now in a difficult position, but I'll have plenty of other chances for which I'll work hard.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
KE JIE: I became fairly surprised when I saw the misclick. I thought he would ask for a pause or lodge a dispute, so I waited for quite a while before making my next move. I didn't know what was going on, and no one in the room reacted or talked to me, so in the end I decided to continue the game.
Even though that misclick turned out to be a very bad move, the game was far from being a done deal. I played some slack moves afterwards, but eventually I managed to keep applying pressure on him. Since he didn't lodge a dispute, I just carried on and tried my best in the remainder of the game.
I found the misclick itself quite funny, but I would have probably accepted an undo had he asked for it - not a total rematch, but an undo. But this is only hypothetical, since I didn't know how or why the incident occurred. I even turned around to see if there was any word in the room, but since no one approached me, I just carried on with the game.

I really didn't know what's going on...If I got up and said something, what if I got forfeited? So I just kept on playing. It was still very early stages in the game, and his winning chances got up to around 30%, but perhaps he wasn't feeling too well mentally. I just thought that I could not afford to lose that game, especially if my opponent had made a misclick. The pressure on me would be very difficult to overcome.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #36 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Not 100% sure of Stephen Hu's source, but per the cyberoro record of the interview with Shin Jinseo, it's mostly similar to what Stephen wrote, except with regard to the first part:

Quote:
이미 일어난 일이니까 지금은 어쩔 수 없고 선수나 한국기원이 신경 써야 할 것 같다


The nuance here isn't so much that he feels that he and the Hanguk Kiwon should have foreseen the issue before the match, but rather more like:

Quote:
It already happened, so there's nothing we can do about it; it's something that players and/or the Hanguk Kiwon will have to pay attention to going forward.


The translation is basically correct otherwise, but to me, the feeling is a little different between these two statements. He also talked a little more saying that it was a touchpad problem and not a mouse problem, but that seems already known.

Anyway, the point remains that both players agree with the result, it was all a part of the rules, and there's nothing much to do about it except to accept the result here.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #37 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:35 pm 
Judan

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Interesting parallel from chess world. Magnus Carlsen misclicked and resigned immediately, he says to avoid putting opponent in difficult position of deciding should he offer draw out of sportsmanship.

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/skilli ... ng-carlsen

Quote:
Magnus was still bewildered afterwards when Kaja Snare asked him what had happened with the mouse-slip.

The truth is I don’t really know. Usually I will know it’s one of two things. Either you just try to make the move and then you move it too far or not far enough, or the other one is that you think about making a move and then you drop the piece back on the wrong square, and frankly I don’t even remember which one it was, which is very strange. Regardless of what happens it was kind of sudden. I was choosing between many strong continuations there and all of a sudden I have to resign.

He didn't necessarily have to resign, but when Nepo hesitated Magnus stepped in to avoid any repeat of the kind of magnanimity he’d shown himself when Ding Liren lost on time against him in the Chessable Masters.

Maybe because he was in shock of what happened and I decided that one thing I don’t want to happen is him to think, 'should I offer a draw since he slipped in a winning position?' and so on, so I just resigned so he wouldn’t have to make any of those decisions.

Magnus feels mouse-slips are just part and parcel of the online game.

There are functions that you can choose like confirm move, that you have to confirm every move, but this can take away mouse-slips, but it slows the game down and takes away precious seconds. I think mouse-slips are part of the game, but obviously when it happens that’s really the worst way to lose the game!



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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #38 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:06 am 
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There is a very funny video with Ke Jie's reaction to the misclick from game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S750qPmp2UY

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Samsung Cup
Post #39 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:57 am 
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My off-the-cuff idea would be to have a setting that allowed you to require TWO inputs to validate. Mouse *and* a key of choice. [CTRL] or [TAB] or... It would be almost as fast as the mouse itself, but it would avoid misclicks.

Take care

[EDIT: You would have to change the computer's settings, though. I just tried something similar while posting this and...]

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