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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #21 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:26 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
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believe that a number of professional players in Korea would disagree with you. And in fact, this particular professional player is likely getting special treatment because of her earlier performances. Had it been an older, poorer performing player, they'd have gotten the axe.


How do you think that stacks with the sex assault allegation not too long ago?


Kim Sungryong also deserved to get the axe. He was a popular commentator, yeah. But you can't behave that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #22 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 pm 
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I dont understand why age shouldnt be taken in to account,just because they are pros they are still humans,especially younger kids are still developing,of course they should be punished,but I cant imagine in any sport in the world where a lifetime ban for a 13 years old would ever happen no matter if they are succesful or not


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #23 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:32 pm 
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Using AI in go matches could be compared with mechanical doping in bicycle racing. Femke Van den Driessche was banned for 6 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #24 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Using AI in go matches could be compared with mechanical doping in bicycle racing. Femke Van den Driessche was banned for 6 years.


The parallel is a good one.

But there was rather more to it than "6 years", I believe. She had her previous results annulled (in go that would presumably mean having promotions voided), but more importantly the sponsors said they would sue her. As a result she retired voluntarily, and so what many people would claim was the right outcome was achieved anyway. I don't know how the law suit panned out, but in cycling you mostly represent either yourself or a team, and it would be only you as an individual or the team who could expect to be sued. In go you represent a guild - all other go players in your country. The whole guild could therefore be sued, or at the very least the sponsor would withdraw entirely.

So self-preservation for the guild could demand a very stiff and public punishment. I would imagine that was considered, and age might have been a factor, but it is likely in my view that they also hesitated over fears of a messy and drawn-out law suit by the player.

One thing we see in professional sport in the west, and this cycling instance is a good example, is that cheaters rarely show remorse. Like van den Driessche they claim they didn't get a fair trial, or had bad advice, or had a bad hair day. The only regret they show is at getting caught.

The reason the parallel is good is that in very many sports cheating can be opportunistic. A trip in football, shifting a ball or a leaf in golf, grunting in tennis, showing spikes as you steal a base in baseball, and so on. Even though horrific injuries can result at times, penalties tend not to be draconian because people recognise irregular things can happen in the heat of the moment.

But with mechanical doping, as with the use of AI in go, there is no spontaneity about it. It is planned meticulously and away from the pressure of the moment. And if it succeeds, it can go on and on and on for years. Viz. Lance Armstrong.

The other problem with this kind of sustainable cheating is that opponents who suspect something is afoot, but can't prove it, decide to join the cheaters. Just as athletics is now a contest between pharmacists, professional go will become a contest between programmers.

I notice that very many of the comments here on the scale of punishments are nearly all about the perpetrator's age or the perpetrator's teacher or the fan's pressure on the perpetrator, and no doubt in due course we'll hear sob stories about the perpetrator's home life or school life. But there has been barely a peep about the hundreds of victims (thousands if we take a long tern view in the case of a mild sanction).

The best way forward may be for these victims - the fellow professionals - to decide, though their guilds, what action to take against their own fellow member. This wouldn't work in cycling or other international sports because national pride would get in the way too easily. But it not only can happen in go, it already has for past misdemeanours, in both Korea and Japan. China operates differently because of government involvement and so no guild structure, but cheating has happened there, too, and was likewise dealt with robustly. On occasions the verdicts in each of these countries can seem like whitewash, but we don't get to see the undertow that does relentlessly operate over time.

Of course, maybe the undertow is being relied on here, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #25 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:00 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:

I notice that very many of the comments here on the scale of punishments are nearly all about the perpetrator's age or the perpetrator's teacher or the fan's pressure on the perpetrator, and no doubt in due course we'll hear sob stories about the perpetrator's home life or school life. But there has been barely a peep about the hundreds of victims (thousands if we take a long tern view in the case of a mild sanction).



That's a good point. This is not only about punishing someone who did something wrong - it's also about consideration for the victims and others who have been impacted.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #26 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:02 am 
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Of course there are victims, but this doesn't mean the perpetrator's age shouldn't be taken into consideration. By analogy, victims of 13 year-old criminals suffers as much as victims of adults, but jail sentences of 13 year-olds are lighter because they are not considered to be fully aware of the consequences of their actions.


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #27 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:22 am 
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Also, you can't magically discard the responsibilty for rearing kids just because they can legally enter a contract. I wrote of more extreme situations before, but, if it helps, one that could happen (because equivalent things have... say, in soccer) anytime:

Imagine I'm a kid's guardian. Raise him, manage to get a court (or a law or...) to agree he can legally enter contracts. On his own cognizance. Then I have him sign a contract with me that robs him blind. The kind of contract adults sign every day, get robbed blind, and are told, by the courts, "Nope, you signed it, you own it."

Will I be prosecuted?

Now, regarding the victims: they should be compensated. I don't hear anything about that, though. No one's saying, "half [*] the kid's income for the next 4 years will be redirected to the federations emergency fund" or something like it. What I'm reading doesn't help the victims in the slightest, so I feel no obligation to agree with it in deference to some victims that are not being helped anyhow.

Also, I have some discrepancies with the goal of professional organizations. Which is it? Is it nurturing new talent? Is it augmenting the art? In players? In technique? Or is it simply a Guild?

If it is a Guild, then I have no ties to it. No obligations. No moral support. Not more than I have to the Worshipul Company of Mercers, and I'm not even a Briton. Provide a service or go bankrupt. Not my problem. And, just sayin', it has to be a service that's superior to that of an AI.

Take care.

[*] Because you want him to actually have an incentive to win some. 100% for two years could simply have the child disappear (and train?) for those 2 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #28 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:58 am 
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By analogy, victims of 13 year-old criminals suffers as much as victims of adults, but jail sentences of 13 year-olds are lighter because they are not considered to be fully aware of the consequences of their actions.


Well, first let us take step back. The case we are talking about here is not yet a crime. There is no criminal, just an alleged transgressor in a case, which, if it came to court, would be a civil tort, I think. There are victims, though.

But for the purposes of discussion, let us consider crime. I'm not sure the above quote is true. There are at least two components: the crime and the sentence. One or both or neither may be impacted by the person's age. Just thinking something should be so doesn't make it so. I can't speak for what happens outside the UK, and I can't even quantify the impact inside the UK. All I can say is that the two elements are considered separately and different criteria can apply to each.

When I was young, there was a famous case of an 11-year-old child killing two toddlers. She was found guilty of the crime of manslaughter due to diminished responsibility. I am not aware whether her age was a specific factor in that, but the age of the victims was certainly a factor in the court of public opinion, which was outraged. Possibly reflecting that, the judge's sentence was effectively the maximum - she was detained at Her Majesty's pleasure, which is a way of saying "for ever, unless we change out minds." She was eventually released on licence after (I think) about 20 years, which is a longer spell than some adults.

However, the judge may have been giving a normal sentence irrespective of age, because we can even identify a third element in the justice system: how sentences are carried out. Age certainly becomes a factor here. Child criminals are typically locked up away from adults, in juvenile centres. The length of detention may, nevertheless, be the same.

This case erupts again every now and then as journalists continue to dig into it. The court of public opinion is a powerful one, and possibly an unfair one. But it's the only one the victims have in many cases.

But I repeat. These paragraphs are about crime and gaol time. They have nothing to do with alleged AI cheating in go. There, essentially, the court of public opinion is the only one that applies. Some jurors will shrug and says, "she's a kid." Others will argue the potential impact on the game as a whole (victim effect, sponsorship, educational value, etc) is too great to ignore. Probably the vast majority will wait and see, and maybe cast an eye for enlightenment at how it is affecting the chess world.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #29 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:56 am 
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It’s simple. I don’t advocate putting a 13 year old in jail for something like this. I advocate taking away her pro status. Being a pro is an earned privilege, which comes with responsibility. If you’re irresponsible, you don’t deserve the job.

Anyway, it's okay that not everyone has the same opinion on this. We're not the ones making the decision, and the choice has already been made: she'll get away with the cheating with a year ban slap on the wrist.

My opinion doesn't change that. Just a little sad for a future where cheating is tolerated like this in professional go...

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #30 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:59 am 
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Those kids who become pro at a very young age may not have chosen freely to do so. They were raised in a very competitive environment, didn't have a normal childhood, and adults around them put them pressure to study harder and pass the pro exam. Were they really aware that their lives could be different, that they could make other choices?

The pro exam is a measure of go skill, not of maturity or morality. The person you are at 13 is not the same as the person you are at 18. Give children the chance to become better adults instead of suffering all your life from the consequences of your actions at 13.

That said, I agree that "it's okay that not everyone has the same opinion on this".


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #31 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:39 am 
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jlt wrote:
The person you are at 13 is not the same as the person you are at 18. Give children the chance to become better adults instead of suffering all your life from the consequences of your actions at 13.


Certainly for most people moral development is not complete by age 13. We should help children to develop high moral standards, but not judge them harshly when they do not live up to them. Also, punishment is not as effective as reward, and the certainty of punishment is more effective than the severity of punishment.

Given that, it is probably appropriate to punish not only cheating but the appearance of cheating, so as to increase the certainty of punishing actual cheating. And if we are going to punish the appearance of cheating, then harsh punishment is inappropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #32 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:54 am 
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jlt wrote:
The pro exam is a measure of go skill, not of maturity or morality.


A job interview for a software engineering company is also a measure of skill. That doesn't mean that once I get hired, I'm free to sell company IP for personal gain or do other stupid stuff. The job comes with responsibilities, as does being a pro.

It seems you don't really think that cheating with AI is that big of a deal if someone is a kid... I don't understand that perspective at all.

There are two choices:
* 13-year olds are old enough to take on the responsibilities of being pro;
* they're not mature enough, yet

In the pro world, we've accepted the former. If we opt for the latter, then that works, too. But it means that we shouldn't have young pros. Or they should be in their own category - "pros that haven't learned the responsibility that comes with the job, yet" or something.

Bill Spight wrote:
Given that, it is probably appropriate to punish not only cheating but the appearance of cheating, so as to increase the certainty of punishing actual cheating. And if we are going to punish the appearance of cheating, then harsh punishment is inappropriate.


Why would you punish someone with the appearance of cheating, without evidence that they actually cheated? Appearing to cheat is not wrong - cheating is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #33 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:23 am 
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Kirby wrote:
It seems you don't really think that cheating with AI is that big of a deal if someone is a kid


I didn't say that. I agree that cheating is wrong and should be punished. I think that a one-year ban is enough of a punishment for a kid. I would also be fine with a 2-year ban or perhaps a 3-year ban if such cases become more frequent, but not with a lifetime ban. In fact I would agree on a lifetime ban only for recidivists.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #34 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:31 am 
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jlt wrote:
Kirby wrote:
It seems you don't really think that cheating with AI is that big of a deal if someone is a kid


I didn't say that. I agree that cheating is wrong and should be punished. I think that a one-year ban is enough of a punishment for a kid. I would also be fine with a 2-year ban or perhaps a 3-year ban if such cases become more frequent, but not with a lifetime ban. In fact I would agree on a lifetime ban only for recidivists.


Just seems to me that this is the same as saying, "We're ok to have pros in our organization, who have used AI to cheat in cash-prize tournaments".

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #35 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:21 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Given that, it is probably appropriate to punish not only cheating but the appearance of cheating, so as to increase the certainty of punishing actual cheating. And if we are going to punish the appearance of cheating, then harsh punishment is inappropriate.


Why would you punish someone with the appearance of cheating, without evidence that they actually cheated? Appearing to cheat is not wrong - cheating is wrong.


This kind of thing is common, both in law and in other things. For instance, when drug use is criminalized, the possession of drug paraphernalia may also be criminalized, and excessive prescription of drugs may be considered a breach of professional ethics. You draw a wide enough fence around prohibited behavior so to prevent it or if it occurs you are able to punish the breach of propriety or ethics without having to prove that the prohibited behavior actually occurred. This way you increase the probability of punishing the behavior. You also reduce the suspicion that it occurs, which can be quite corrosive.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #36 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:24 am 
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@Kirby: yes, I think it's all right if the cheater has already been punished and returned the money that was unduly won. Tournament organizers should take appropriate measures so that cheating doesn't happen again by proctoring players more carefully, checking bags and toilets, etc.

In short I am in favor of giving people a second chance. It doesn't mean they can get a third chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #37 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:07 am 
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There are two choices:
* 13-year olds are old enough to take on the responsibilities of being pro;
* they're not mature enough, yet

In the pro world, we've accepted the former. If we opt for the latter, then that works, too. But it means that we shouldn't have young pros. Or they should be in their own category - "pros that haven't learned the responsibility that comes with the job, yet" or something.


This seems to me to be an ideal summary of the situation.

Now, on that basis, we look at the support for the view that 13-year-olds are mature enough to take on the responsibilities for being pro, we can cite various known behaviours and signs of maturity of this young group:

* They politely say "I was lucky" when they win and "I will try harder in future" when they lose. They may have a tear in private (but so can adults), and they don't rant and rave, have hysterics or tear their opponents' hair out. All of which is behaviour that can be seen in some teenage girls. (But as parents will vouch, this may actually be a sign of maturity of a different kind. The kids are being manipulative, trying to suss out how far they can go with being wilful.)

* They routinely don't spit in their opponents' eyes, don't kick them under the table, don't cough as the opponent decides to play, don't quote obscure rule interpretations, don't burp or fart. In short, they don't misbehave or act obnoxiously in order to get an advantage. Very occasionally there may be a genuine dispute, just as there can be in the adult game (e.g. triple ko occurs: shall we replay or toss a coin?). This is not misbehaviour. This sort of thing is the fault of rules or maladministration.

* They do not go and find a book to look up the next move in a rare joseki the opponent tosses at them. They do not phone a friend for advice. They do not look supplicatingly at a teacher or supporter for a clue as to how to proceed.

In other words, they know all about the whole range of normal, mature behaviour and society's views on cheating. They are mature (or mature enough), their peers have decided.

Yes, of course 13-year-olds will be a different person at 18. An 18-year-old will be a different person at 23 (e.g. he might be married with kids and so learned not to drive like a suicidal maniac). But the 23-year-old, priding himself on his mature outlook in caring for his wife and kids might go out for a night out with the lads, get CV and hug and kill grannie. If grannie survives, she might be a thoroughly mature 80-year-old, but she may also be a bit gaga and so leave her house to her cats instead of her son or daughter. And so on ad infinitum.

Age is not really relevant. What is relevant is your behaviour. That, at least, appears to be the view taken by professional go organisations (whose ethical principles you have to sign up to, by the way.) If you are deemed mature you are deemed to be able to take responsibility for your actions. If you take responsibility, you accept the same penalties as everyone else if you transgress.

You can certainly have a debate about how heavy penalties should be, and take the view that a light penalty is appropriate so that transgressors can have a second chance and learn from their mistakes. Most sports seem to have taken that line. But age of someone deemed "mature enough" shouldn't come into it. Sane penalties, light or heavy, for everyone is the fairest way.


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #38 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:28 am 
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jlt wrote:
In short I am in favor of giving people a second chance. It doesn't mean they can get a third chance.


I'm also in favor of giving second chances - in amateur go. For professionals, I hold a higher standard. Sadly, if pro go organizations make decisions like this one, giving only a year off as punishment (which, by the way, is hardly a punishment - Lee Sedol took off a year awhile back and came back stronger than when he'd left), I'm afraid I can't hold that standard for much longer. The line between amateur and pro blurs further...

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #39 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:56 am 
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"They [...] don't quote obscure rule interpretations [...] This sort of thing is the fault of rules or maladministration."

Obscure rule interpretations? Such as "Go was originally played with stone scoring so I won today's game"? Fault of the rules? Such as dame defining ordinary territory as void being in seki.

"professional go organisations (whose ethical principles you have to sign up to [...])"

What are those ethical principles to be signed by the various pro organisations?

"It doesn't mean they can get a third chance."

I have never like the US three strikes approach. It just contributes to filling US prisons. Usually, sentences should be forgiving. Only for extreme criminals (such as mass-murderers) clearly endangering human beings forever the sentence should be life-long prison.


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Post #40 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:33 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Now, on that basis, we look at the support for the view that 13-year-olds are mature enough to take on the responsibilities for being pro, we can cite various known behaviours and signs of maturity of this young group: [...]


And then we have Magnus Carlsen, who at age 26 stormed out of a press conference after losing a game in the world championship. He was then what he is now: the best chess player in the world. Grouping works, statistically. It doesn't work when you talk about a single person.

Since the comparison to chess was already made: Go's big western cousin, who dealt with this kind of cheating way longer than go has, should provide ample data how to manage such situations - from the sport's perspective (ie gaining viewers and sponsors and thus players). Though I admit there might be less insights on how to maintain honour and keep up subjective projections on what being a professional should mean :p

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