Diagrams on these Forums - 10 numbered moves is not enough.

Charlie · #1

"Is it just me or..." ... Ok - apologies for the cliché.

I find that whenever I analyse a board position and post a diagram on these forums, I inevitably require the ability to number eleven moves or more. Seriously, how many sequences in Go have only ten moves?

Ladders sometimes have well over 200 moves - probably a bit excessive because you can number the start of the ladder and the continuation is usually obvious - but even simple things like the 3-3 invasion have more than ten.

I am pretty sure that nothing can be done about this because L19 uses the Sensei's Library diagram system and that can't number more than ten moves. I am pretty sure that posting this is futile but, meh, it needs to be said.

Kirby · #2

The diagram code is open source, so it can be changed, but the trick is in representing moves past 10 in text. Wi up to 10 moves, you can represent a move with a single character in text. As a result, the diagram stays rectangular, regardless of what diagram features you use: each of the 19x19 intersections are represented by a single character.

If you want to represent more than 10 moves in a single diagram, how do you want them represented in text?

EdLee · #3

Kirby wrote:

how do you want them represented in text?

Is Unicode a possibility?

quantumf · #4

Kirby wrote:

The diagram code is open source, so it can be changed, but the trick is in representing moves past 10 in text. Wi up to 10 moves, you can represent a move with a single character in text. As a result, the diagram stays rectangular, regardless of what diagram features you use: each of the 19x19 intersections are represented by a single character.

If you want to represent more than 10 moves in a single diagram, how do you want them represented in text?

Are the numbered moves bitmaps or actual decorated text? If the former, then surely you can just render smaller numbers.

hyperpape · #5

I believe Kirby means the actual ascii text from which the diagram is produced. It's been discussed (a tiny bit) on sensei's as well: http://senseis.xmp.net/?topic=1220.

The best solution, if you're interested in permitting more than ten moves per diagram is to scrap ascii input and make an interactive diagram creator. Maybe one day I'll do that.

jts · #6

The as ascii diagrams are odd in many ways, but it is better to have onedecent standard than five excellent standards, right?

hyperpape · #7

I agree, and the ten move restriction isn't too onerous. Actually, an interactive diagram creator should happen even if you don't scrap the ascii standard.

Kirby · #8

Yup, I meant the ascii representation. The input format is the only limitation.

jts · #9

Can anyone come up with a set of ten unused characters that could boost us up from decimal moves to duodecimal moves? The obvious choice is {ABCDEFGHIJ}, but B and C already have an interpretation. The second most obvious is {!@#$%^&*()}, but @, #, and possibly $ already have in interpretation. In fact, there doesn't seem to be a single block of ten adjacent, unused keys anywhere on my keyboard...

By the way, just as a reminder, the last time we improved something on the site (the move from a default sgf-small to a default sgf-large) it broke all the existing sgf tags on the site. Is there any reason to think that wouldn't happen again?

For reference:

Code:

   In      In     Appears     Meaning
 Diagram  Text      as
 --------------------------------------------------------
   X       BO            plain black stone
   O       WO            plain white stone
 1..9     B1,W2    ,   Black's move 1, White's move 2 [3]
 0 (zero) B10,W10  ,   Black's or White's move 10 [3]
   -     B11-B100  -  Black's or White's move 11-100
   B       BC            black stone with circle
   W       WC            white stone with circle
   #       BS            black stone with square
   @       WS            white stone with square
   Y       BT            black stone with triangle
   Q       WT            white stone with triangle
   Z       BX            black stone with cross mark (X)
   P       WX            white stone with cross mark (X)
   C       EC            circle on empty intersection
   S       ES            square on empty intersection
   T       ET            triangle on empty intersection
   M       EX            cross mark (X) on empty intersection
 a..z     a..z     a..z    letter on empty intersection

Kirby · **#10**

Ten unused characters would just give ten extra possible moves per diagram. This doesn't seem like a huge improvement.

If we do ever make a change, we can be more careful about existing stuff first this time. :-)

Diagrams on these Forums - 10 numbered moves is not enough.

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