It is currently Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:02 pm

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 19 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline logan
 Post subject: White to Play
Post #1 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:34 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 437
GD Posts: 9
Noriyuki Nakayama 7p, Tales of Men Crazy about Go, trans. John Power (Abridged) wrote:
Some years after I had learnt to play go, I encountered an extraordinarily strong player in a Shinjuku go club. [H]e was a descendent of a samurai.

He sat down heavily on the tatami mat, placed the bowl with the white stones between his knees, looked doubtfully at me and muttered: "Shall we have you try three stones?"

I was stupefied. I played on even with Takeda Toshiro, the strongest player at this go club. With three stones, I was confident I could hold my own even against Go Seigen, who at this time was at his peak.

This game took place 30 years ago, but I still remember the fuseki. The moves up to 22 are the perfectly ordinary two-space pincer joseki. While I was wondering how White could expect to win playing straight forward moves like this, the samurai played in a strange place with 25.

I now realize 25 is a magnificent move. I had no idea how to answer.

"What's up? You're taking your time," laughed the samurai. I don't remember how I played after this, but I do remember that White forced me to resign.

This samurai was Takehara Kintaro, known and feared throughout the amateur go world as 'Devil Takehara'. He enjoyed his heyday in the period before the Kikuchi-Murakami group came to prominence.

Some people dismissed him as a braggart, but this was because of his unconventional personality. Year later, at a function organized by the magazine, he scored an easy win on black against Watanabe Shokichi 9-dan, which shows that he was no mere braggart.

So where did White play 25?

Image


Last edited by logan on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
This post by logan was liked by: Splatted
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #2 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:43 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
I would guess the upper right 3-3. I've seen that as an important point in one of Nick Sibicky's lectures. When your opponent responds to the cap of a 10-3 stone with the the knight's move he said you should take the 3-3 right away. I don't see that being different with the stone being a 9-3 stone.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Shenoute
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #3 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:03 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 474
Liked others: 120
Was liked: 157
Rank: igs 4d+
I remember reading this in a Go World :D

"You've played 10 moves and all you've done is create a target for white to attack" (or something like that, I'm quoting from memory).

This post by Shenoute was liked by: RBerenguel
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #4 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:39 am 
Oza

Posts: 2494
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
I'm looking at the cap at E8
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #5 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:38 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
h11 seems cool (or can we h10 with the f11/13 peeps in reserve) but then black c9 or d9 so maybe we should just boldly cap at e8. b runs and splits the top group but that has k17 for sabaki.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #6 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:20 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 437
GD Posts: 9
I'll post the solution tomorrow. Give you all another day :)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #7 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:49 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 662
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
This game does not look familiar so I looked in the Treasure Chest Enigma. I cannot find it in there. Are you sure that is the source?

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #8 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:20 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 437
GD Posts: 9
A slip, it was taken from Tales of Men Crazy about Go, the sequel to the source of the The Treasure Chest Enigma.

Were you trying to cheat DrStraw? ;-)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #9 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:15 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 662
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
logan wrote:
A slip, it was taken from Tales of Men Crazy about Go, the sequel to the source of the The Treasure Chest Enigma.

Were you trying to cheat DrStraw? ;-)


No, I just was pretty sure I had not seen it and also was confident that I would remember it had it been in that book. In other words, had your reference been correct I probably would already know the answer.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #10 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:21 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 437
GD Posts: 9
Well, now that you know that you don't know I want to know: can you figure it out so you'll know?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:32 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 662
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
logan wrote:
Well, now that you know that you don't know I want to know: can you figure it out so you'll know?


No. I stopped studying 25 years ago. And this is the study group so I don't have a chance.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #12 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 699
Location: Switzerland
Liked others: 485
Was liked: 166
Rank: DDK
KGS: aco
IGS: oca
OGS: oca
tengen

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #13 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:27 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 437
GD Posts: 9
oca is right, the answer is tengen once again. Let's see the reasoning:

jk



Here's the real answer with an explanation from Noriyuki Nakayama (Black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . b . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Noriyuki Nakayama wrote:
Whether Black plays the next at 'a' or 'b', White gets the nasty peep at 'c'. Black could swallow his pride and make the 'dog's face' move of 'd', despite its inefficiency, but then White 'e' would be annoying.

After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26, but instead of answering directly he just made the comment: 'I don't like the moves to Black 22. You've played ten moves and all you've done is create a target for attack.' He then abruptly departed, as if he'd just remembered an appointment.


Nice memory Shenoute :)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #14 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:50 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2494
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
logan wrote:
...
jk



Here's the real answer with an explanation from Noriyuki Nakayama (Black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . b . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Noriyuki Nakayama wrote:
Whether Black plays the next at 'a' or 'b', White gets the nasty peep at 'c'. Black could swallow his pride and make the 'dog's face' move of 'd', despite its inefficiency, but then White 'e' would be annoying.

After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26, but instead of answering directly he just made the comment: 'I don't like the moves to Black 22. You've played ten moves and all you've done is create a target for attack.' He then abruptly departed, as if he'd just remembered an appointment.


Nice memory Shenoute :)

So close, and yet so far...
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #15 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:57 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 662
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
logan wrote:
oca is right, the answer is tengen once again. Let's see the reasoning:

jk



Here's the real answer with an explanation from Noriyuki Nakayama (Black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . b . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Noriyuki Nakayama wrote:
Whether Black plays the next at 'a' or 'b', White gets the nasty peep at 'c'. Black could swallow his pride and make the 'dog's face' move of 'd', despite its inefficiency, but then White 'e' would be annoying.

After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26, but instead of answering directly he just made the comment: 'I don't like the moves to Black 22. You've played ten moves and all you've done is create a target for attack.' He then abruptly departed, as if he'd just remembered an appointment.


Nice memory Shenoute :)


Well, I didn't analyze it but based on the context of the thread I looked for something really bizarre. I thought of the attachment one point above and to the left of the real answer. But, as I said, that was so bizarre it could not be correct.

Nice to see that with my declining ability I can still be in the general area. :shock:

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #16 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:54 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 699
Location: Switzerland
Liked others: 485
Was liked: 166
Rank: DDK
KGS: aco
IGS: oca
OGS: oca
logan wrote:
After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26

The correct move for :b26: is tengen :blackeye: (as tengen cannot be wrong... no.... it cannot, there is only one tengen... one to rule them all)

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Connection
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #17 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:53 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 4
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
I am not quite sure if I understand correctly, so why would white "e" be annoying after black played "d"?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline gowan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #18 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:28 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1627
Liked others: 543
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
This story was translated by John Power and published in Go World issue number 50 (winter 1987-1988). There are other good stories in that issue, including the one which became the origin of the story about wearing down of the nail the right hand index finger.
Just a small sample of the wonders available in the DVDs of Go World :)

Connection, WHite "e" would be annoying to Black because it would block the large black group from access to the left side and also, at the same time, enlarge White's potential territory there.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #19 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:41 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 437
GD Posts: 9
Connection wrote:
I am not quite sure if I understand correctly, so why would white "e" be annoying after black played "d"?
Because if White played 'e' first, Black would most certainly not reply with 'd'. So after White 25, Black 'd'. White 'e' it's as though Black was forced to play 'd' after White 'e'. A very painful result. This sort of move analysis is called, 'tewari' analysis.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 19 posts ] 

Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group