It is currently Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:19 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
Online
 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #1 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:29 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10622
Liked others: 3553
Was liked: 3328
Black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are a number of possibilities. :)

Black's choice in the game loses 14% to par, according to Elf.

Enjoy! :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #2 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:02 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6645
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 424
Was liked: 3650
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Pretty odd that it's black's move after the press in top left, did white tenuki and play L16? I'll just go with nice and simple c17, with the white stones around I'm not sure I really want the other common followup of e18 as
1) what's the influence doing?
2) maybe white can make messy fight
3) bots like corners.
4) I like corners.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:43 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1634
Location: Earth
Liked others: 609
Was liked: 279
my move:
I would play C17. I also considered candidates C3 and O3.


spoiler:
Problem 40 aka "How to cut a knights move" aka "Prohibit the cut of the knights move"


This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1757
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 809
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Three options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Local 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 2 . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 4 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can take sente now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Local 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 5 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . 8 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Allowing White's stones to connect doesn't look good for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Tenuki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 2 3 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X 4 9 . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Assuming White takes sente after the corner pattern resulting from :b1: she can deal with the top left but not in a clearly advantageous way.

Conclusion: the top left looks important but it's hard to find a good way to keep sente. So perhaps playing elsewhere (invading the lower left) is best.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:29 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5395
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1026
Was liked: 1421
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
In the upper left, black committed to taking the outside. This is a thematic continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


IMHO, c17 shows a lack of resolve, panicking at the first sign of opposition. :mrgreen:


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:43 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 316
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 158
GD Posts: 1072
Bill Spight wrote:
Black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Like several others, I'm going for 'a'. It stabilizes Black's group and I don't see anything else pressing.


This post by pwaldron was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #7 Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:20 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10622
Liked others: 3553
Was liked: 3328
The game is GoGoD 1997-05-08c, O Meien (W) vs. Fujisawa Hideyuki (AKA Shuko).

For Uberdude, how we got here. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Moves 1 to 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 7 . . . , 0 . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Jump to 2d line, mistake
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . b . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fujisawa jumped to the 2d line with :b11:, threatening to jump to a. But it loses 14% to par, according to Elf. O Meien peeped at b for :w12:, which loses 9½% by Elf's reckoning.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Mainline for :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . O 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . X . . . , O . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 0 a 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w12: attaches underneath, and then :w14: plays the Kitani descent. :b17: plays a keima connection. The hanging connection at a is also playable. After :w18: crawls Black play the kick in the top right corner, then comes back to extend to :b21:, making eye shape.

Top choice: 3-3 attachment

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 3-3 attachment, White makes small life
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . 5 7 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . X . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If :w12:, Black presses White down to make small life. White can tenuki with :w12: or :w16:.

If White makes small life, the advantage of the 3-3 attachment is fairly clear. If, however, White switches to the bottom right corner, the advantage may not be so obvious.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #8 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:00 am 
Judan

Posts: 6645
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 424
Was liked: 3650
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Trust O Meien to do something wacky :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #9 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:01 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1757
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 809
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Bill, doesn't :b19: separate? It seems oddly left out of the variation. Should we assume tenuki is an option here, which I wouldn't expect.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #10 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10622
Liked others: 3553
Was liked: 3328
Knotwilg wrote:
Bill, doesn't :b19: separate? It seems oddly left out of the variation. Should we assume tenuki is an option here, which I wouldn't expect.


The 3-3 got 28.3k rollouts for :b11:, which is all we are working on for the variations. The commentaries do not show plays in variations that get fewer than 1500 rollouts. :b17: got 3.4k rollouts, and then :w18: got 1.7k rollouts. The top choice for :b19:, whatever it may be, got fewer than 1.5k rollouts. It may well have been K-17, but 1) we don't know, and 2) with only 3.4k rollouts, we can't be sure of :b17:. Elf's 1.5k cutoff threshold can be annoying, but with so few rollouts we can't be confident in the choice of plays.

I think such a cutoff is wise, at least for a computer program. Look what happens when Dave runs KataGo overnight. :) If we give KataGo 100k rollouts after :b15: in this variation, what might the mainline be? :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #11 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:11 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1757
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 809
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Bill Spight wrote:
which is all we are working on


You often refer to the GoGod Elf project, on which you seem to work with multiple people. Can you remind me who, what, why ... ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #12 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:50 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10622
Liked others: 3553
Was liked: 3328
Knotwilg wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
which is all we are working on


You often refer to the GoGod Elf project, on which you seem to work with multiple people. Can you remind me who, what, why ... ?


I don't work on that project. I found out about the 1500 rollout threshold and the 500 rollout threshold by studying the published commentaries. :)

Here is their ReadMe file.

ElfOpenGo wrote:
=====================================
ELF OpenGo Professional Game Analysis
=====================================

We've used ELF OpenGo to analyze almost every professional game of Go ever played (~100k games drawn from GoGoD). We then use this analysis to evaluate the quality of professional players on a per-move basis, and not just based on who won the game. You can use our visualization tool (https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... index.html) to compare players across eras, and to view humanity's progress in the game across time.

Importantly, you can see humanity's improvement in the game in 2016, when Go AIs came onto the scene and taught humans to play at a higher level. Also notice the harm that the large historical event of WWII did to the game.

How to understand the SGF commentaries
======================================

The UI is a tool to visualize aggregation of statistics of human games. But you can also zoom-in to the analysis for an individual game, which we provide as a commentary in SGF format. The raw data files are available at:

- High-level analysis: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... alysis.csv
- Annotated SGFs: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... _sgfs.gzip

In every move of the game, we use ELF to find the best moves and create a tree of recommendations. We also comment with two numbers: the probability that black is winning, and the number of rollouts that ELF used to analyze that position. The more rollouts, the better ELF thinks a move is.

In the SGF, the human move is always the main line. We mark ELF’s favorite move with an exclamation point. So, if the human move is annotated with an exclamation point, then ELF thinks it is the best move. When not in the main line, a) is always the preferred move, and you will not see an exclamation point.

We retain the tree of recommendations that ELF thinks are pertinent. Specifically, we keep every move in the tree that has at least 5% of the rollouts. This means we show you a tree of every move that was considered by ELF at least 5% of the time.

ELF does not have support for dynamic komi, but we still want to bring you historical analysis. So all games are analyzed as if the komi were 7.5. For games with alternate komis, you should discount the evaluations of who is winning, though the move suggestions are still high-quality.

Selfplay analysis
=================

Besides analyses of professional games, we also have analyses of the selfplays generated throughout our training process:

- High-level analysis: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... alysis.csv
- Annotated SGFs: s3://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopengo/a ... _sgfs.gzip

Varied model analysis
=====================

Finally, we have analyses of the GoGoD dataset from multiple intermediate models from our training process:

- High-level analysis: https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopeng ... alysis.csv
- Annotated SGFs: s3://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopengo/a ... _sgfs.gzip


I have italicized the url for the commentaries. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #13 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:54 am 
Oza

Posts: 2814
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3927
Quote:
We've used ELF OpenGo to analyze almost every professional game of Go ever played (~100k games drawn from GoGoD).


And for the avoidance of doubt, the GoGoD database was used with my special permission. It remains copyrighted.

I obviously had discussions on various aspects with the Facebook team, but I neither had nor sought any involvement in the AI project. I think several of the FB team have now moved on, and I have had no intimations that further work will be done. In any case, self-play has made databases otiose in that regard.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #14 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:16 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2311
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2214
Was liked: 1301
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
We've used ELF OpenGo to analyze almost every professional game of Go ever played (~100k games drawn from GoGoD).


And for the avoidance of doubt, the GoGoD database was used with my special permission. It remains copyrighted.

I obviously had discussions on various aspects with the Facebook team, but I neither had nor sought any involvement in the AI project. I think several of the FB team have now moved on, and I have had no intimations that further work will be done. In any case, self-play has made databases otiose in that regard.

John - How would you characterise the current state of data collection of recorded games? Are there still a lot of game records in "public" hands for you to work through or are you mainly waiting on new revelations from private sources? I think the team's claim to having analyzed substantially all the pro games ever "played" is a bit of an exaggeration, but how much of the recorded history do you think you have been able to gather together?

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 40
Post #15 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:32 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2814
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 3927
Quote:
John - How would you characterise the current state of data collection of recorded games? Are there still a lot of game records in "public" hands for you to work through or are you mainly waiting on new revelations from private sources? I think the team's claim to having analyzed substantially all the pro games ever "played" is a bit of an exaggeration, but how much of the recorded history do you think you have been able to gather together?


It was their quote not mine, but having said that I now blench as I look back at a time when Mark and I calculated that there were probably about 40,000 games available. After that faux pas I have stayed well clear of trying to estimate totals.

What I do know is that I have several hundred old Chinese games to do, several hundred early 20th century from Japan, and new Edo games (e.g. Shusaku and Shuwa and Shuho and Jowa etc - big stuff, in other words) keep popping up. I have still have sunjang baduk games to do and Ryukyuan games. I'm sure these would have all been done if Mark was still around, but I prefer working on books. Not to mention that more and more modern amateurs seem to treat old games with contumely, thinking possession of Leela on their PC makes them an expert.

So the short answer to your question has to be how long is a piece of string, I'm afraid. I'm not measuring, but I keep plodding along.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by: ez4u
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group