It is currently Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:40 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #21 Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:59 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7417
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 1662
GD Posts: 312
Bill Spight wrote:
Well, there is where we differ. I think that the basic concepts of go are not linguistic. :)
Hi Bill, we're actually in 100% agreement.

The thought experiment came about because I was stuck in a situation with no equipment, so I was forced to use words only, and that led to a breakthrough for me, another way to think about the intro, so I incorporated the good stuff into it. But no, of course I need hardware after about 5 seconds. It's very visual. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #22 Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:12 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1606
Location: San Diego
Liked others: 618
Was liked: 481
Universal go server handle: Bantari
oren wrote:
EdLee wrote:
[list]
[*]Start with the grid. (An empty Go board, size irrelevant, but starting with the grid-side up.)
[*]Mention "stones".


I can agree with most of the list, but I don't see why saying stones is bad. I have to call them something and it works as well as "game pieces".

I fully agree.

Sorry to bunch all the stuff into one post, but I have little time lately, and so I just write on.

----------
@OP:

I have seen similar things as well, when beginners are obsessed with eyes (if this is what they were taught) or with killing (if this is what they were taught) or with something else, depending on the previous day's lesson. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, its just a phase, and with more understanding there will be more flexibility. Don't be upset that you're kid after the first two lessons doesn't play like Takemiya yet, this will come much later. Or it won't.

Either way, keep at it, and it will all work itself out in the end. Many of us went through that at some point. Many of us still do, in one form or another, except we like to call it 'style' now, and pretend it is actually something good. ;)

----------
@Ed:

I am surprised you 'cringe' when you see people using a board to tech beginners. I understand you think you found better way, but I don't think 'cringing' is the right response. Especially, since I firmly believe, that there is no one best method, but each student/teacher combo ultimately requires its own unique approach to make the lesson efficient. Otherwise its all cookie-cutter anyways.

Furthermore, it seems to me, from your own explanation, that when you say "I got rid of jargon" you simply supplant conventional jargon with unconventional one. You say 'pieces' instead of 'stones'. So what? Why is that better? To a chess player, maybe. To a kid, maybe saying 'M&Ms' is even better? Same for pointing and saying 'here' or pointing and saying 'liberty'. What's the difference? You might point and say 'free space'. Its just semantics.

To talk about concepts you need to put words to those concepts eventually, or you will be repeating the same long definition over and over, or just pointing your finger over and over. And if you have no board and no stones, what do you point to? Proper words for the concepts are even more important then. And what is gained by using words which are not commonly accepted as Go terminology instead of the proper ones? I see no point to it...

Same goes for boards/grids and other Go hardware. While I agree that there are situations in which it is very advantageous to talk about Go without all that stuff, it certainly helps. And it goes not only for Go, the idea is valid for all teaching. This is why teachers use props, (physical) examples, and so on... It just helps with visualization. Of course - like with the jargon - you can use paper and coins (for example) or even verbally describe what you mean - but if a board and stones are available, I don't see why not use them.

And finally, you say that grid (especially 19x19) is (or can be) overwhelming for beginners. Sure, it can be. But again, so what? Trying to visualize without a board/grid can also be confusing. Whatever you do can be confusing. There is a theory of teaching which implies throwing the student into deep water and letting him try to figure it all out. Not sure if this is always the best, but it certainly has something to be said for it.

----------
@All:

What are we trying to accomplish here, I ask myself? It is my opinion that not everybody is meant to play Go. Most people find other hobbies more comfortable. And there is nothing wrong with that, I think. Just like not everybody would like baseball, or poker, or speed skating, or whatever.

But of course, almost everything can be presented in a way that makes people think that it is the right thing for them (not that I think that teaching without a board accomplishes that.) Just watch some TV commercials if you want to see some neat tricks. If you want an example - get some cute girls in bikinis, put them somewhere on campus with Go boards and stones, and you'll have a 100++ new devoted players each day, I guarantee. Is that satisfactory?

So personally:
I see nothing wrong with being open and up-front about the game: here is a board (I prefer 19x19 for serious teaching, as you know), here are stones, let me explain the rules (yes, with the right jargon) - and lets see if you like it. This is what it is, this is what you're getting into. There is no point hiding anything, like the jargon, from the beginner. Its part of the game, something they will have to get used to, and the sooner the better. And there are other obstacles: Go is hard, its confusing, and its deep - there is no reason to sugarcoat. If a person is drawn to and has aptitude for Go, they will play and get strong. If they don't, the won't. And neither is right or wrong.

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #23 Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:53 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7417
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 1662
GD Posts: 312
Bantari wrote:
I am surprised you 'cringe' when you see people using a board to tech beginners.
You misread and misunderstood what I said.
You've done this quite a few times now, making a habit of it.
It's tiresome.
It's an interesting strategy/technique, to misread others and to go off a tangent.
Bantari wrote:
you simply supplant conventional jargon with unconventional one. You say 'pieces' instead of 'stones'. So what? Why is that better?
It depends on what we mean by "better". There's a famous story of Feynman's about knowing the names of birds (fluff), versus knowing the behaviors and properties of the birds (substance). Some people focus on the jargon (fluff), I focus on the key concepts (substance), when teaching first-timers. As I said, after the first few minutes, it doesn't matter. Of course, the jargon is useful in the long run, because it's more efficient for communication. I was referring to the very first few minutes, with first-timers, I find some people focus on using jargon, and make the first-timers very confused -- I cringe at this.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #24 Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:19 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1994
Location: Germany
Liked others: 7171
Was liked: 809
Rank: OGS + EGF DDK
OGS: trohde
“I’m alive, I am aliiiiiiiive!”, cried the … uhm … stone piece token and stretched out its four (uhm, three … uhm, two) liberties arms tentacles proboscides pseudopodia cilia into the grid universe substrate, eager to unite with others of its kind.

_________________
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” — Mark Twain ★ Come and play on OGS


This post by Bonobo was liked by 4 people: Bill Spight, Elom, foe, Jrs22
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #25 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:36 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 295
Location: Washington State
Liked others: 223
Was liked: 56
Rank: KGS13kyu
KGS: gotony
OGS: nghtstalker
So Ed I am Joe off the street showing some interest. Just how do you explain the game to me your way. Could you give an example of you u teach it pls?

I try to avoid jargon and try to keep it simple so it is good to see/hear how someone else would do it.

Thanks

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #26 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:55 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7417
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 1662
GD Posts: 312
Hi goTony,

I'm happy to show you.
Right now I'm traveling, out of the country.
When I get home and settle down,
I hope to make a short clip and post it on YouTube.
I mentioned this intro in another thread here a long time ago,
but I'm not sure I can find the link any more.
Thanks.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #27 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:07 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 295
Location: Washington State
Liked others: 223
Was liked: 56
Rank: KGS13kyu
KGS: gotony
OGS: nghtstalker
EdLee wrote:
Hi goTony,

I'm happy to show you.
Right now I'm traveling, out of the country.
When I get home and settle down,
I hope to make a short clip and post it on YouTube.
I mentioned this intro in another thread here a long time ago,
but I'm not sure I can find the link any more.
Thanks.



No worries, hope your enjoying your trip. I think we can all benefit from discussing what works and what does not. So I look forward to your example on Ytube.

I do not believe that calling the pieces stones or freedoms/liberties is too technical or off putting. I also tend to believe that those who will be interested in the game because it looks interesting will want to learn despite an initial rule learning curve. For those not really interested, it does not matter what we call the pieces they will not stay with it if you get to eat the captured M&M's and you give out balloons.

All fields of interest have their own vocabulary. Medicine, law, Music and its oh so many sub categories, Auto repair, Archery, bowling. When a person learns bowling they learn gutter, strike, spare, and in the old days how to count points right of the bat. When someone learns baseball they do not dumb down the terms.

So I think we all wish to spread the word and teach this great game the balance for me is presenting it in an interesting non overwhelming way. I believe the real problem is not the game or the teachers for the most part, but our culture. ( New thread maybe) Our culture as a whole does not encourage thinking games as a good in and of themselves. Chess is ok to dabble in but few people really respect someone who takes it seriously. You can be a football fanatic but not a chess fanatic. A video, sight driven, entertainment culture is not one conducive to playing a long, intellectual board game. Even Asia is seeing its culture change and interest change. Perhaps if GO was seen as a big gambling game, like Texas Hold em we could popularize it by televising it. I know in Korea there is lots of gambling associated with GO.

Perhaps we are doomed to being a small subset of afficionados.

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #28 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:19 am 
Judan

Posts: 6174
Liked others: 1454
Was liked: 2356
goTony wrote:
I also tend to believe that those who will be interested in the game because it looks interesting will want to learn despite an initial rule learning curve.


Rule learning curve for go? Consider the rules for chess, with pieces that move differently, pawns that capture differently than they move, castling, en passant, etc. Or the rules for bridge, which are so complex that there are so-called bridge lawyers (not a flattering term). Or the rules for golf, or, heaven forbid, the rules for baseball! The rules of go are nothing by comparison with those of most other interesting games. Go even existed for centuries, if not millenia, without codified rules. :)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #29 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:25 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 295
Location: Washington State
Liked others: 223
Was liked: 56
Rank: KGS13kyu
KGS: gotony
OGS: nghtstalker
Bill Spight wrote:
goTony wrote:
I also tend to believe that those who will be interested in the game because it looks interesting will want to learn despite an initial rule learning curve.


Rule learning curve for go? Consider the rules for chess, with pieces that move differently, pawns that capture differently than they move, castling, en passant, etc. Or the rules for bridge, which are so complex that there are so-called bridge lawyers (not a flattering term). Or the rules for golf, or, heaven forbid, the rules for baseball! The rules of go are nothing by comparison with those of most other interesting games. Go even existed for centuries, if not millenia, without codified rules. :)


Yes a smaller curve but a curve none the less. What I think frustrates some people is that the rules are so simple but they do not see the atari, or the most basic capture and so feel stupid. I always remind them it is as simple as golf or basketball. There u just put the ball in the hole but it takes practice for the mind to see and know how to do it. Same with GO it will come to you if you just see it a few times.

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #30 Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:46 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 1
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: AGA 2 dan
KGS: fatheralex
Hi, guys. I'm new to forum and really like idea to start teaching go from concept of territory and stone connection. But how to move kids to the capturing concept? I teach kids for many years, but some of them stuck to the capturing even they was explained many times territory and influence. Any help? :bow:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #31 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:48 am 
Judan

Posts: 6174
Liked others: 1454
Was liked: 2356
Father Alex wrote:
Hi, guys. I'm new to forum and really like idea to start teaching go from concept of territory and stone connection. But how to move kids to the capturing concept? I teach kids for many years, but some of them stuck to the capturing even they was explained many times territory and influence. Any help? :bow:


How was territory explained to them? The concept of territory emerges naturally from the Capture Game. (As it does, in some form or other, from any form of No Pass Go. :))

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #32 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:03 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 856
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 100
Was liked: 341
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 1d TG 3d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
If you explain territory as surrounded area then you need to explain when an opponent can live in it or not, so you must explain life. This is too much.

So you reduce the game purpose to its origin: put down more stones. The only explanation needed is the rule of capture. Every kill or life is played out until the end so that eyes and seki take shape in front of the novice's own eyes. That makes for long games.

So you reduce the board size.

This is my method: stone counting on very small boards.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #33 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:16 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7417
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 1662
GD Posts: 312
Father Alex wrote:
I teach kids for many years, but some of them stuck to the capturing even they was explained many times territory and influence. Any help? :bow:
Hello Fr. Alex, welcome.

If you try to "explain" influence to beginners, I think it's a mistake.
A big mistake, IMO.

As others have mentioned, for raw beginners,
I also feel teaching about "eyes" is a mistake.
It's much better for them to discover about eyes on their own,
naturally, from Capture Go.

Of course, 19x19 is too much for raw beginners.
Start with Capture Go on smaller boards, like 9x9.

If they stick around after 2 to 3 weeks, eventually
they'll be ready for "normal" Go. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #34 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:27 am 
Judan

Posts: 6174
Liked others: 1454
Was liked: 2356
EdLee wrote:
Father Alex wrote:
I teach kids for many years, but some of them stuck to the capturing even they was explained many times territory and influence. Any help? :bow:
Hello Fr. Alex, welcome.

If you try to "explain" influence to beginners, I think it's a mistake.
A big mistake, IMO.

As others have mentioned, for raw beginners,
I also feel teaching about "eyes" is a mistake.
It's much better for them to discover about eyes on their own,
naturally, from Capture Go.


For them to learn about two eyes takes Capture Four. :)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #35 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:44 am 
Oza

Posts: 2285
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 650
Was liked: 411
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Father Alex wrote:
Hi, guys. I'm new to forum and really like idea to start teaching go from concept of territory and stone connection. But how to move kids to the capturing concept? I teach kids for many years, but some of them stuck to the capturing even they was explained many times territory and influence. Any help? :bow:


What age are the kids? Teaching an 9 year old something is very different to teaching a 5 year old.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #36 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:08 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7417
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 1662
GD Posts: 312
Bill Spight wrote:
For them to learn about two eyes takes Capture Four. :)
Doh! :blackeye:

( I also almost forgot capture Go has no throw-in or snapback. :) )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #37 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:55 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 856
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 100
Was liked: 341
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 1d TG 3d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
Capture go changes the game objective in order to teach the rule(s). This is both unnecessary and misleading. If you trace back the game objective to stone counting then you learn how to capture stones while understanding why.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #38 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:54 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6174
Liked others: 1454
Was liked: 2356
Both the Capture Game and Stone Counting have a group tax. If we teach enough beginners by these methods, do you think it will make a comeback? ;)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #39 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:32 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 856
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 100
Was liked: 341
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 1d TG 3d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
There are 3 weaknesses of my method:
- small boards don't reveal the beauty of the game
- the scoring needs to be relearnt later and proven equivalent
- group tax

I wouldn't mind its comeback but indeed we won't convince many others ;)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Do's and Don'ts: teaching two-eyes as a rule
Post #40 Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:21 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 466
Location: Wisconsin
Liked others: 412
Was liked: 446
I usually make eyes the second lesson, after the basics and a first training game. If you don't teach them early, then the whole process of beginner games becomes a 'gotcha' exercise. They can't make a living shape because they don't properly understand what a living shape is.

So, yes, they spend some time thinking they have to waste time and stones making eyes. That's a stepping stone on the way to a better understanding of the game.

I have always felt that there is way too much impatience in Go teachers. They want their beginners to play like pros from the start. Bad Go is a necessary precursor to good Go, and learning from mistakes and experience is better than being told not to make mistakes (or, worse yet, not being provided with the necessary information to make those mistakes!)


This post by Inkwolf was liked by 2 people: goTony, HermanHiddema
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group