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 Post subject: Re: Tsumego/Tesuji apps for iPad & iPhone
Post #21 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:08 am 
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Not sure if it's legal, though it is in a free portion of app. As I wrote previously - it's $35 for all sets, which is, in my opinion, rather ridiculous especially if you take into account all other apps available. But it's just me, and if you have a money you can do whatever you want with it. I'm going to update a list of apps with this app and Life&Death of Go later today.

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Post #22 Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:18 am 
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Thanks again for your reference page, very useful...

Did you have a look to :
Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles released in English
(Not only for kids)
http://www.britgo.org/node/4047


Also found the following apps (free trial, not tested) :

Beauty & Go for iPhone, iPod touch and iPad on the iTunes App Store
https://itunes.apple.com/bm/app/beauty- ... 67258?mt=8
27 juil. 2011 – Read reviews, get customer ratings, see screenshots and learn more about Beauty & Go on the App Store. Download Beauty & Go and enjoy it ...
Does not seem good. intended for kids

Badukpro
https://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/baduk-p ... 91673?mt=8

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Post #23 Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 1:05 pm 
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pleiade67 wrote:
Thanks again for your reference page, very useful...

Did you have a look to :
Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles released in English
(Not only for kids)
http://www.britgo.org/node/4047

Also found the following apps (free trial, not tested) :

Beauty & Go for iPhone, iPod touch and iPad on the iTunes App Store
https://itunes.apple.com/bm/app/beauty- ... 67258?mt=8
27 juil. 2011 – Read reviews, get customer ratings, see screenshots and learn more about Beauty & Go on the App Store. Download Beauty & Go and enjoy it ...
Does not seem good. intended for kids

Badukpro
https://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/baduk-p ... 91673?mt=8



Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles - it is probably very nice set of problem, but not a classic one, so I surely want to try it some day - not today though :).

Beauty & Go - this one looks interesting. Even if it was designed for kids the problems are quite challenging sometimes even for me. After a few minutes with it I can say that I like it. Thanks for info about it!

Badukpro - piece of garbage. Avoid.

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Post #24 Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 2:07 pm 
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lobotommy wrote:
Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles - it is probably very nice set of problem, but not a classic one, so I surely want to try it some day - not today though :).


Just got it. Very nice. The Intermediate problems I've done are nice little ko problems with loads of traps in them, that move that looks really like a tesuji results in a ko six moves later and that kind of thing. Fun!

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 Post subject: Re: Tsumego/Tesuji apps for iPad & iPhone
Post #25 Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:12 pm 
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Boidhre wrote:
lobotommy wrote:
Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles - it is probably very nice set of problem, but not a classic one, so I surely want to try it some day - not today though :).


Just got it. Very nice. The Intermediate problems I've done are nice little ko problems with loads of traps in them, that move that looks really like a tesuji results in a ko six moves later and that kind of thing. Fun!


Boidhre, may I use your opinion in a template below?
Is there any information about number of problems available?

Name: Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles
Number of problems:
Range: From complete beginners to high dan players (approximately)
Price: $2.99
Link to AppStore http://itunes.apple.com/app/ri-ben-qi-yuan-zhang-xuno/id517153034?mt=8
Boidhre's opinion: Very nice. The Intermediate problems I've done are nice little ko problems with loads of traps in them, that move that looks really like a tesuji results in a ko six moves later and that kind of thing. Fun!

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Post #26 Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:35 pm 
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lobotommy wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
lobotommy wrote:
Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles - it is probably very nice set of problem, but not a classic one, so I surely want to try it some day - not today though :).


Just got it. Very nice. The Intermediate problems I've done are nice little ko problems with loads of traps in them, that move that looks really like a tesuji results in a ko six moves later and that kind of thing. Fun!


Boidhre, may I use your opinion in a template below?
Is there any information about number of problems available?

Name: Cho U’s 4 by 4 Go Puzzles
Number of problems:
Range: From complete beginners to high dan players (approximately)
Price: $2.99
Link to AppStore http://itunes.apple.com/app/ri-ben-qi-yuan-zhang-xuno/id517153034?mt=8
Boidhre's opinion: Very nice. The Intermediate problems I've done are nice little ko problems with loads of traps in them, that move that looks really like a tesuji results in a ko six moves later and that kind of thing. Fun!


Feel free to use any comments I make about an app.

There are a mere 100 problems, 40 Beginner, 30 Easy, 20 Intermediate, 10 Hard. You can buy additional sets of problems for 0.89 cent (Euros, I assume 1 dollar each in the US since that seems to be Apple's normal conversion) each. Two sets of 50 problems split 20, 18, 8, 4 as above and one set of 100 Beginner problems.

You can also switch it from the cutsey cats to a regular go board and stones. The music (kids stuff) can be turned off which is fine. The initial app is expensive for what it is but I don't know of an alternative if you want a set of 4x4 problems on iOS and these would be ideal for solving solely in your head as John Fairbairn was talking about in another thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Tsumego/Tesuji apps for iPad & iPhone
Post #27 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:22 am 
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Additional point concerning the Go Problems app, after checking on the forum of goproblems.com :
--------------------

Go Problems

https://itunes.apple.com/kn/app/go-prob ... 78548?mt=8

Developer : Adumbration Inc. (Adam Miller, creator of goproblems.com)

Tsumego app with a nice interface by Adam Miller (known as "adum"), who is the designer of the well known site http://www.goproblems.com. 200 free problems. More than 4000 additional problems corresponding to a selection by adum of the problems from the site goproblems.com and some other classic problems. The less good: typical price : 3$ for 500 problems. This is pretty pricey compared to other go IOS apps which propose a bunch of problems for just a few bucks. The whole set amounts to more than 30$. A more sensible price for the ipad app would be welcome :) . I would also wish to have additional game sets by level (beginner, DDK, SDK, Dan).

Let us notice that the whole material is freely available on the site http://www.goproblems.com (do not use the java but the "standard" mode on the Ipad). The site currently proposes +17000 problems, but no selection or checking of the problems contributed by various go players). But once again the IOS app has a really nice interface (with the possibility to test variations and solutions with commentaries, which is interesting for beginners). Be that as it may, the free app is good value and you may buy additional problems to support the work of A. Miller.

Remember also that Smartgo kifu includes +2000 problems, apparently from the same site go problems.com, with many many additional functionalities.

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 Post subject: Re: Tsumego/Tesuji apps for iPad & iPhone
Post #28 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:43 am 
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Strictly speaking, some of the apps you list contain tsumego from famous go books which are not out of copyright. I can definitely tell you that with regards to Kada Katsuji (I suspect is listed below in an app as Kada Koji), a certain Japanese publisher issued an apology and stopped distribution of a translation of a certain Korean tsumego book as it proved to contain the composed problems of the famous Japanese tsumego composer. For more info >>> http://www.tsogen.co.jp/news/2010/07/10072210.html

Apps such as the following are suspect:

Name: Life and Death of Go
Number of problems: 7329
How to calculate liberties? (44 - some theory of semeai with diagrams)
Classical life-and-death shapes (118), Entry Level (800), Primary Level (800) , Middle Level (752), Superior Level (753), Kensaku Segoe's (950), Lee Chang-Ho's (738), Secret Essences (264), Fly Dragon Diagram (1000), Moving Finger (136), Magic Chess (446), Fa Yang Lun (193), Maeda Nobuaki's (210), Kada Koji's (216)

Name: Tesuji of Go
Number of problems: 5 333
Authors/sources:
Jin Jiang (267), Tom (366), Kensaku Segoe (188), Lee Chang-Ho (735), Japanese Go Association (2 636), Kudo Norio (101), Yoda Norimoto (202), Middle Level Tesuji (360), Fujisawa Shuko (228), Ishida Yoshio (250)


The above bold entries are highly suspected to be unlicensed from the copyright holders of the books from which they were taken.

In my opinion as someone who has collected many go problem books, if the apps contain all the problems from a go problem book which is still protected by copyright, if you don't own an actual physical copy of such book from which those problems were taken from (even if it is out of print) or if the programmer has not licensed those problems from their respective copyright holders, you are actually paying a pirate for the privilege of using that knowledge without any benefits to the actual rights holder.
For example, if it is from a Chinese source, and the app is listed as containing all the problems in famous Japanese and Korean tsumego books which are not out of copyright, and they don't provide documentation about licensing such problems from the respective copyright holders of those books, I would highly suspect it is the work of a pirate enriching himself off the work of others via people who purchase his app. If you suspect I'm wrong, show me otherwise.
In Japan, my understanding is that the copyright for books are valid until 50 years after the death of the last surviving author of the work.

Ask yourself, if it were legal to just copy all the tsumego and tesuji problems from books and magazines and sell such a database to other people without licensing, why wouldn't the GoGOD team have done that years ago with all the materials they use to build their game records database?

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Post #29 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:23 am 
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Thanks tchan - I don't know anything about copyright issues here, but sure, it can be true.
If there is some piracy then owners of the rights to some of these tsumego can always apply an objection letter to Apple and resolve this problem.

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Post #30 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:57 am 
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lobotommy wrote:
[..]

If there is some piracy then owners of the rights to some of these tsumego can always apply an objection letter to Apple and resolve this problem.
Well, yes, sure.

But…

1. They’d have to know about this, i.e. they’d constantly have to observe all channels through which their stuff could be spread illegitimately … these are many.

2. They’d have to purchase those apps … thus giving the pirates even more money, for their OWN stuff :-(

3. They’d have to be willing to go through the bureaucratic hassles, and they’d have to be very patient.

4. The damage would already have been done.


I fear there is quite a chance that they’d rather stop producing material. Has happened already, as is to be read elsewhere in L19.

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 Post subject: Tsumego/Tesuji apps for iPad & iPhone
Post #31 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:01 am 
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I think it is a normal way of today business: If you want to protect yours revenue you need to scan and check main digital stores about piracy and react if something wrong happen. There are only three stores: AppStore, GooglePlay, Amazon. It is not that hard to check for apps and books about go there (at least it's easy in AppStore, GooglePlay is harder but it's possible too).

About buying the apps: 4-7 €/$/£ is really not a problem. The only problem is time you need to verify the content, but it is not that hard too. An hour? Done.

So if there are any concerns about piracy the owner of the rights should be able to verify them in one day. For all apps available on the market right now.

It's XXI century, digital goods are standards now, and if someone want to be still in the business he needs to know how to work in this new business world. And how to defend their property. So if they really think about their future they should already know what to do, and where the money are, and how to protect what they created.

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Post #32 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:41 am 
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FYI, the purchase for Life and Death of Go and Tesuji of Go is now $4.99, each.

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Post #33 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:13 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
FYI, the purchase for Life and Death of Go and Tesuji of Go is now $4.99, each.


Thanks, both apps info updated.

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Post #34 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:18 am 
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lobotommy wrote:
I think it is a normal way of today business: If you want to protect yours revenue you need to scan and check main digital stores about piracy and react if something wrong happen. There are only three stores: AppStore, GooglePlay, Amazon. It is not that hard to check for apps and books about go there (at least it's easy in AppStore, GooglePlay is harder but it's possible too).

About buying the apps: 4-7 €/$/£ is really not a problem. The only problem is time you need to verify the content, but it is not that hard too. An hour? Done.

So if there are any concerns about piracy the owner of the rights should be able to verify them in one day. For all apps available on the market right now.

It's XXI century, digital goods are standards now, and if someone want to be still in the business he needs to know how to work in this new business world. And how to defend their property. So if they really think about their future they should already know what to do, and where the money are, and how to protect what they created.

Are you suggesting that because the owners of the rights have not spent the time and money to verify the content of apps, that it is acceptable for you to purchase and use such apps even if you suspect that it contains pirated content of in-copyright material which the rights owners are currently not aware of?

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Post #35 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:41 am 
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tchan001 wrote:
Are you suggesting that because the owners of the rights have not spent the time and money to verify the content of apps, that it is acceptable for you to purchase and use such apps even if you suspect that it contains pirated content of in-copyright material which the rights owners are currently not aware of?


Interesting, tchan. You are the one making unsubstantiated accusations here. For all we know, the problems are properly licensed.

Perhaps it would be more productive if you contact the publishers of the books in question, alert them of your suspicions, and if they desire, they'll take the appropriate action.

Having a go at lobotommy seems like ill-directed aggression.

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Post #36 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:44 am 
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Not having a go at lobotommy. Just that lobotommy in his statement is putting the onus of obstructing piracy on the owners of the rights. The question at hand is whether an end user would morally consent to use an app knowing it contains pirated material. Whether they do or not is up to the individual, but if there is advice to promote the method of getting pirated material, that would seem to be against the policy of the forum.

I highly suspect whether the apps could license all the rights to many famous Japanese tsumego books because many of these are so out of print and the rights would be so hard to track that the only source for such material is possibly only via the wrong channels. I have spent a substantial amount of money buying rare go problem books and I know how unavailable some of them are. Why would it be so easy for these app makers to be able to find such books and their contents if it were so difficult for me to find and obtain them, not to mention the time needed to convert the knowledge to electronic form for my own use. I just don't think it is an easy job to secure the rights for using such works. That is why I'm challenging the assumption that just because it is included in a commercial app, it is totally safe from copyright violations. I have no problem with commercial apps providing a nice interface and you yourself entering collections of problems which you own from your own books or collections of problems from ancient manuals which are out of copyright.

You need to realize that go problems are not just magically there because some monkeys threw some go pieces on a board. Some are well composed problems with intricate variations which have been thought through thoroughly by geniuses of the game. Some of these may have already passed away, but the rights of their work are probably with their remaining family members who may not have a good grasp of English or of modern technology.

I challenge people who think go problems are easily obtainable to try to research how to BUY rare Asian go problem books physically. You might say you could borrow those books from a library, but does that mean you can turn the info into electronic form for SALE to others without permission?

Try researching these books for example and let me know how often these physical books turn up for sale even in Japan:
Author: Kada Katsuji 加田克司
Series: 加田克司傑作詰碁1-8
Series: 加田克司衆妙詰碁1-4

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Post #37 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:45 am 
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Tchan, I agree with most of thing you have wrote.
However I will defend the idea that publisher should be aware what is going on on the modern market and do some monitoring.

iPad is 3 years old, iPhone is 6 years on the market right now. I can't believe that in the most advanced technologically countries like Japan/Korea the publishers aren't aware of them and that they are behind in todays mobile revolution...

I bought almost all the apps mentioned in this topic (ChoU 4x4 is an exception) with not even one thought about piracy or any concerns about legality because it was bought in AppStore...
If there is some questionable content then I'm sorry, but I can't verify any of it. I don't speak Japanese, Korean or Chinese, I have no books to compare and verify anything and to check what is taken from which source.

There is a law, and the old roman rule is: not guilty till proven.
The owners of the rights are probably the only ones which know if these apps are licensed or not. And the authors of these mentioned apps of course.

So if anybody is concerned about legality of content in the apps mentioned here, and have a chance to ask legal publishers about it - he should ask them and resolve this problem.

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Post #38 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Here is what I think, if anybody cares.

There are laws and they possibly impose several layers of concern:
1. The author should look after his rights and be aware how and where his work is used.
2. The Publisher/distributor should uphold these laws and make sure everything is legit with what he publishes/distributes.
3. The end user should also be aware, and make sure whatever he/she buys is legal.

Now, in reality, several things can (and do) happen:
1. The authors can be oblivious, don't care, or simply have no way of verification or enforcement.
2. The publishers/distributors might be oblivious, not care, be crooked, or whatever. Here the 'no way of verification' I chalk under 'crooked'.
3. The user can dump all the burden of validation on the previous two layers and assert that if somebody distributes something (and has not been caught yet) it is perfectly OK to buy it. Until you get caught, that is.

I am not a lawyer, so it is hard for me to comment on the legality of the above, but I know that it does happen.

However... in this discussion the issue is that of morality, not of law, as I understand it. In other words:
If you know that the material you purchase might or even does violate somebody's rights, and that you, in possibly cahoots with the publisher/distributor, are basically ripping somebody off... is that ethical for you to do? I think this is a question everybody has to answer for themselves, and then live with the answer.

I know there is a large group out there, mostly the 'everything for free' faction, who possibly does not care, as long as they can get it and get it cheap. I call them collectively "the opportunists", although possibly unjustly. Other than tightening the laws and straightening out the enforcement, there is nothing that can be done about that.

Personally, I believe in the right of the author. When you create something, you should have full control over your creation. And it is up to you to keep it, sell it, license it, or give it away for free. And the rest of the gang, the publishers, distributors, users, and whatnot - they all should respect author's wishes. To me this is the only way quality good get produced, in the long run and rare exceptions notwithstanding.

But, as I said, faced with lack of adequate law and serious enforcement - it remains largely a moral question everybody has to answer for themselves.

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Post #39 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:54 pm 
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TChan, rights for a book are either clearly assigned by the copyright law of the country in question, or the work is orphaned. If the latter, then different jurisdictions handle the problem in different ways, but the U.S. standard appears to be that you can use the orphaned work at your own risk.

Anyway, if your expertise as a collector of fine books and .pdfs gives you special insight into the difficulties of writing a properly licensed tsumego app, I hope you will grace us with your own contribution to the AppStore.

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Post #40 Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:29 am 
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Unless you are thinking of the famous ancient go manuals, assuming the modern famous go problem books as being orphaned is quite wishful thinking.

As to building an app where I would need to track down multiple sources of copyright holders and finance the payments for the individual licencing rights for each important book or series of books, I doubt it would be worth the effort if thought about in a purely business sense and unfortunately I'm not rich enough to consider a philanthropic endeavor in this area.

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