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 Post subject: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #1 Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 4:38 pm 
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I am thinking about purchasing this program but as we all know it has a hefty price tag.

Does anyone know if you have to pay all over again for a new iteration of the program when it comes out i.e. crazy stone 2014?

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:12 am 
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I think they offered a big discount for users of CS2012 to upgrade. Still the difference was something like half a stone, and almost the same features. With an i7 processor it's what, 4d? Probably enough for a lifetime.

Dudoso

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #3 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:11 am 
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Dudoso wrote:
With an i7 processor it's what, 4d? Probably enough for a lifetime. Dudoso


But be careful here, don't just say "with an i7". There is a large range of crunch power among the i7's, enough to be a stone or two.

A laptop with a low power i7 (needs to be working on battery sometimes and not producing too much heat) and a desktop or workstation with an i7-3770 or i7-4770 in it are quite different.

Note that it is hard to comparison shop without all the details. From the site it is impossible to tell what are the conditions << are future upgrades discounted? is this a one machine license? is this a one at a time machine license? etc. >> A major factor to consider is how strong a program do you need now? as opposed to a few years ahead when you might need one several stones stronger. Ideally you want a computer program that is at least 5 stones stronger than you are but don't need one with a highest level more than 9 stones stronger than you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #4 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:17 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Dudoso wrote:
With an i7 processor it's what, 4d? Probably enough for a lifetime. Dudoso


But be careful here, don't just say "with an i7". There is a large range of crunch power among the i7's, enough to be a stone or two.

A laptop with a low power i7 (needs to be working on battery sometimes and not producing too much heat) and a desktop or workstation with an i7-3770 or i7-4770 in it are quite different.

Note that it is hard to comparison shop without all the details. From the site it is impossible to tell what are the conditions << are future upgrades discounted? is this a one machine license? is this a one at a time machine license? etc. >> A major factor to consider is how strong a program do you need now? as opposed to a few years ahead when you might need one several stones stronger. Ideally you want a computer program that is at least 5 stones stronger than you are but don't need one with a highest level more than 9 stones stronger than you are.


I guess that for most, pachi or fuego with long time settings can fill the gap until almost (KGS) dan-level.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #5 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:15 am 
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Well I bought CrazyStone 2011 and 2013 (I didn't realise I might be able to get a discount :cry: ). Since I could afford it I bought it because I wanted to get the best software I could and spend my time on something I felt I could trust to play sensibly. CS has nice analysis functions too that I like.

Perhaps it's marketing but I feel like playing CS is less wasting my time than a weaker program, even if it still beats me.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #6 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:33 am 
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Thanks for the replies.

Any idea on when CS 2014 is going to come out or will there even be one this year?

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #7 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:24 am 
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CnP wrote:
Well I bought CrazyStone 2011 and 2013 (I didn't realise I might be able to get a discount :cry: ). Since I could afford it I bought it because I wanted to get the best software I could and spend my time on something I felt I could trust to play sensibly. CS has nice analysis functions too that I like.

Perhaps it's marketing but I feel like playing CS is less wasting my time than a weaker program, even if it still beats me.


The playing strength difference of the various top programs isn't all that different (just a stone or two) once you adjust for "equivalent hardware". And assuming (not what a previous person suggested) they same amount of time allowed, since go is a timed game.

At your level you have a choice of programs that would all be at least 1 dan KGS on reasonable hardware that you might have (and a choice up to about 3 dan if you had really powerful hardware, like a workstation with an i7-4770 in it). So it's not playing strength but other factors:

1) How is it sold? (on what basis). Is this a one machine license? Or can you run the program on all of your machines and switch it to a new machine you might get. Never assume that you are allowed to do things like that.

2) Are you guaranteed a discount on future versions?

3) What besides simply playing? You mentioned the "analyze" of CS but some of the alternatives also have interesting/useful features besides simply playing.

In other words, especially if you are paying for the program, shop around.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #8 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:43 pm 
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Regarding upgrading, I asked about upgrading to 2013 from 2012 and they said this:

"Thank you for your inquiry.
This e-mail is from UNBALANCE customer support.

We have released Crazy Stone 2013 as a new program,
and you will not be able to upgrade 2012 to this new program.

Sorry about this, but to play Crazy Stone 2013,
please purchase the program at the price 80$.



Best regards,

-----------------------------
UNBALANCE Corporation
support@unbalance.co.jp
-----------------------------"

I'm sticking to 2012 since there's not enough reason to shell out so much for a new version.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #9 Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Maybe that discount was only available for a certain time period.

When you all use Crazy Stone does it usually play logical moves or does it make mistakes often?

I tried the trial of smart go for windows today and beat it pretty severely. I have a decent laptop w/ a i7 family processor. The program is suppose to be at 5 dan or something on kgs and I am definitely not at that skill level.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #10 Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:40 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Dudoso wrote:
With an i7 processor it's what, 4d? Probably enough for a lifetime. Dudoso


But be careful here, don't just say "with an i7". There is a large range of crunch power among the i7's, enough to be a stone or two.

A laptop with a low power i7 (needs to be working on battery sometimes and not producing too much heat) and a desktop or workstation with an i7-3770 or i7-4770 in it are quite different.



Yes quite. I meant strong latest i7. As for how much stronger you need an opponent to be, I believe the stronger the better. Playing against very strong opponents, mainly WBaduk sandbaggers but also a former insei I was taught by for a short while, was more instructive than playing kyu level players. There's a solidity, a consistency of proper moves that eventually rubs on you.

Dudoso

PS: again, a comment by Alex Dinerchtein 3P, about Crazy Stone first defeat of a KGS 5D,
"breakfast
2011-04-23 05:04
Pay attention to moves
17-71
They were played on pro level! No mistakes at all. Nice shapes, good sacrifising. Who said that computers cannot understand ko fights?
Blacks lead after B71 is quite big"


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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #11 Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:39 am 
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Dudoso wrote:

Yes quite. I meant strong latest i7. As for how much stronger you need an opponent to be, I believe the stronger the better. Playing against very strong opponents, mainly WBaduk sandbaggers but also a former insei I was taught by for a short while, was more instructive than playing kyu level players.


The point I was making is that while there is a strength difference among the contending programs it isn't as big a difference as might at first appear because the bots are playing on very different hardware.

For example --- on a maximal i7 (3770 or 4770, etc.) I believe ManyFaces12 would be about 3 dan KGS (that's where the bot seems stuck and I don't think he has it running on a server more powerful than that -- his focus these days seems to be on the version intended for the weaker devices). It's 1 dan KGS on what today would be a rather modest machine.

Not any cheaper to buy, but that is a "future versions at reduced price" and "on all of your machines" basis. Remember, this isn't a recommendation except to be pointing out how you should judge these things. I believe on the same hardware CS is perhaps 2 stones stronger than MFOG but we don't know if this is actually true at all hardware levels (one program can "max out" before another one does or "fall off" below some "needs at least this much crunch").

The point is that you shouldn't be comparing CS with kyu level alternatives but with other dan level alternative.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #12 Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 9:21 am 
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I e-mailed crazy stone and they replied that there are no plans to release a new iteration this year. So I think I will buy cs 2013 soon as opposed to waiting for the 2015 version.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #13 Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Thanks to this topic, I decided to buy it.

I just lost my first game... with 9 handicap stones (but maximum difficulty setting) :oops:

I thought that many stones was going to be overkill and I would have an easy game so I probably didn't pay enough attention until I started to get into trouble...

I'm very impressed and a bit angry at my computer right now. I will have my revenge!
(where are my go books? :study: )

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #14 Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:52 am 
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please help me. I am considering purchasing this program for my dad.
my dad is not very computer savvy. He loves go and only plays at the 19x19 level.
I first purchase MFOG for him about 3 years ago. Now he is consistently beating that program.
MFOG says its about 1 DAN level. So I want to buy a program that will play competitively with my dad.
Those of you who have crazy stone 2013. What do you think?
great program?
easy to use?
we have an AMD quad quore 3.0 mgzh . it is a bout a 4 year computer. so far from an i7.
it meets the system requirements needed to run the program. 80 us is alot so i wanted to see what you guys say before i purchase it. many thanks in advance.

dam

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #15 Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:07 pm 
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ares1475 wrote:
I first purchase MFOG for him about 3 years ago. Now he is consistently beating that program. MFOG says its about 1 DAN level. So I want to buy a program that will play competitively with my dad. Those of you who have crazy stone 2013. What do you think?
great program?
easy to use?
we have an AMD quad quore 3.0 mgzh . it is a bout a 4 year computer. so far from an i7. it meets the system requirements needed to run the program. 80 us is alot so i wanted to see what you guys say before i purchase it. many thanks in advance.
dam


That is the big question. While we can make some assumptions about the performance of MFOG 12 (1 dan on a typical machine but the bot playing about 3 dan on KGS running on Fotland's server -- which I suspect might be old enough that not more powerful than a really high end i7 like an i7-4770).

I suspect that when running on the same hardware, CS 2013 might be at least 1-2 stones stronger than MFOG 12. But not the 3 stones stronger that we see on KGS because I believe the CS bot there is running on a significantly more powerful machine.

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #16 Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:43 am 
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Not sure Crazy Stone 2013 will do better than 1 dan on your father's configuration. Depends on the way MCTS is implemented ; could also be slow.

As an alternate you may consider the Crazy Stone game go server proposed by unbalance. It implements the last version of CS on an eight core CPU. Is is announced at 5 dan KGS.

Is is available through an 'engine server mode' in the champion go app on IOS and android, on a pay for play basis. It might also be available on the PC version (but not sure).

I don't k know if you can have paid access without buying one of these, but the price are low on iOS and android (there is an entry edition app on IOS which is even free).

Other strong engine, to test on your configuration: Fuego (free)
http://fuego.sourceforge.net
to install with gogui

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #17 Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:51 am 
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pleiade67 wrote:
Not sure Crazy Stone 2013 will do better than 1 dan on your father's configuration. Depends on the way MCTS is implemented ; could also be slow.


OK, the first thing to keep reminding ourselves (those of us not computer professionals) is for example) that (real) time trades with crunch power <<Given enough time a "Turing Machine" can compute anything computble. Some of the programs (MFOG 12 for example) at the start take the time allowed per move and an analysis of the hardware to determine how many playouts can be used. With others you set the number of playouts and that determines how much real time is used per move. So.......

1) Comparing programs we must adjust so that they are not only on the same hardware but using the same amount of time.
2) MFOG 12 might be able to play somewhat stronger than 1 dan on that hardware if allowed to use more time per move. Your father might not care for that but should at least make the experiment to find out. If the current time setting is "30 minutes for all moves" << I think that's the default >> try two hours. It will then probably use about 30-40 seconds per move.


pleiade67 wrote:
As an alternate you may consider the Crazy Stone game go server proposed by unbalance. It implements the last version of CS on an eight core CPU. Is is announced at 5 dan KGS.[/quote

If somebody is asking you about the properties of brands of cars it isn't relevant to discuss the properties of motorcycles. There is presumably a reason here why playing on-line isn't being used, why being asked about a program that can run on the local hardware. That needs to be considered to be a requirement of the question.


pleiade67 wrote:
Other strong engine, to test on your configuration: Fuego (free)
http://fuego.sourceforge.net
to install with gogui


I don't think necessary to test any programs weaker than MFOG 12. Even though the latest version of MFOG is almost four years old I'm pretty sure fuego hasn't quite caught up to it. What's the strongest bot using fuego on KGS and what is it running on?

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 Post subject: Re: Considering purchasing crazy stone 2013
Post #18 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:09 am 
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http://eidogo.com/#2ROIccxD

A game I played on the Ipad CrazyStone Server, 9H. I was about 9kyu last time I played regularly in KGS.
Nice win, previous dozen or so games I was soundly beaten. Maybe CS resigned too soon.

Dudoso

PS: I read about how to post sgf as diagram, but got error message :S


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CrazyStone Server Game.sgf [1.53 KiB]
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