Life In 19x19
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KGS trolls
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=8887		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
No, I mean shut up and be quiet. And come back when you are stronger.
Author:  Jermelle [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Ah do we have another troll or actual advice :)
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
I've been giving advice about this game for 40 years. Most of it has been approved of. You decide.
Author:  Jermelle [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Okay I'll take your advice, 40 years is something I should respect. I'll be quiet now and just train i guess
Author:  tchan001 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak". :)
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.
Author:  Jermelle [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
well you have a point there. But as I saw it we're all weak so we don't have a right to call eachother weak somebody is always better then you.
Author:  tchan001 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Sometimes, calling someone weak is an encouragement for them to get stronger. If you think you are strong, what's the incentive to study further?
Author:  Jermelle [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
You're the only person too seriously make a good point and make sense. Thank you.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
[admin]

Gentlemen,

Please remember that the TOS forbids insulting your fellow board members.

Thanks
JB

[/admin]
Author:  Mef [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Jermelle wrote:
I played an 8k and jumped because I beat the 8k by such a large margin.


Just one clarification for those who may be reading this thread: margin of victory is not considered in kgs rating calculations. All (equally handicapped) wins and losses are created equal.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Mef wrote:
Jermelle wrote:
I played an 8k and jumped because I beat the 8k by such a large margin.


Just one clarification for those who may be reading this thread: margin of victory is not considered in kgs rating calculations. All (equally handicapped) wins and losses are created equal.


Are you sure Mef? I know in the formula there is no margin... But I remember an unfortunate incident where I won by 200 odd points that made my rank jump quite a bit
Author:  Mef [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
RBerenguel wrote:
Mef wrote:
Jermelle wrote:
I played an 8k and jumped because I beat the 8k by such a large margin.


Just one clarification for those who may be reading this thread: margin of victory is not considered in kgs rating calculations. All (equally handicapped) wins and losses are created equal.


Are you sure Mef? I know in the formula there is no margin... But I remember an unfortunate incident where I won by 200 odd points that made my rank jump quite a bit



I am absolutely certain. The ranking system only uses an estimated winning percentage. Margin of victory is a terrible predictor of relative strength, and this is even before you get into the trouble of figuring out how to handle resignations.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Mef wrote:
I am absolutely certain. The ranking system only uses an estimated winning percentage. Margin of victory is a terrible predictor of relative strength, and this is even before you get into the trouble of figuring out how to handle resignations.


Actually makes complete sense. I checked the game (it was almost exactly 10 years ago! And I'm still no shodan :D) and I had a question mark rank, I bumped just two ranks, to be expected (my opponent was 1 rank higher)
Author:  moyoaji [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
tchan001 wrote:
On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak". :)
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.

This also coming from someone not on the list, but I don't feel like you ever gain the right or permission to call another player "weak" regardless of how strong you are. What does that really say, anyway? "Look at me! I'm really good at this game and you aren't as good as me. That means that you are inferior to me in this one aspect of our lives - but it would seem to imply that you are inferior to me overall because we both value this aspect of our lives. Look at how pathetic you are next to me!"

I don't feel that taunting or mocking an opponent is ever acceptable in go, but I feel this is especially true during a game. If you do this to random people on the Internet, stop now. Think of it this way: would you say these things in a live tournament setting? One where others are around and you are looking the other player in the face?

Now, if you know the person as a friend or fellow club member, then things are different. If you have a mutual understanding that trash talk is acceptable, then go ahead - it's your game, your friendship, your club, your culture. I can't fault that. And if a friend is one of these weaker players that needs to be brought down a peg, then maybe a taste of their own medicine is justified. However, you need to know the person.

I want to include a story with that, but I also don't want to take up much space. If you want to hear about the time I felt it was necessary to put down a weaker player, feel free to read it.

The only time I have ever done this was with one of my friends because he was doing it to me and I felt it was necessary to break his habit.

It was at my college go club. He was getting a big head after beating me in an even game for the first time. In our next game he started making comments like "You can't do that" and "Oh, please" about my moves. Sometimes he was right, other times he was wrong. Either way, I was getting quite tired of this and quite tense. Where had he picked up that habit? None of the other players in our club did this. I'd never done it to him. Wherever he learned this, it didn't matter to me. I knew it wasn't right.

So, after he made a particularly bad move, I declared "Wrong!" and proceeded to win the game by a solid margin.

For the next few games I did this reguarly when he made a mistake until he stopped being critical about my moves. Now such comments are rare in any game he plays. Another club member was grateful for this because it was happening to him as well.

It helps that I've never lost to him in an even game since that one loss. It really helps that now he needs 3 stones against me. But regardless of how strong I am compared to him, he shouldn't have mocked me during a game.

As for the argument that it encourages you to get stronger, I would have to disagree. Losing that first game to him was what encouraged me to get stronger - that week was when I first started to actively practice go outside of the club. All the taunting did was encourage me to shut him up.
Author:  Mef [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
RBerenguel wrote:
Mef wrote:
I am absolutely certain. The ranking system only uses an estimated winning percentage. Margin of victory is a terrible predictor of relative strength, and this is even before you get into the trouble of figuring out how to handle resignations.


Actually makes complete sense. I checked the game (it was almost exactly 10 years ago! And I'm still no shodan :D) and I had a question mark rank, I bumped just two ranks, to be expected (my opponent was 1 rank higher)


Yeah, this sounds pretty reasonable. Provisional ratings are quite fluid, especially if you score a win against someone higher than you (and especially if the couple of games you have on your accounts are more than a week or two old). Winning percentage-wise after your game you probably had a 100% win-rate against that rank, making a maximum likelihood value difficult to calculate (Though presumably you had at least 1 loss on the account as well...if you didn't have a loss on it, then it's possible to be catapulted quite high!).
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
moyoaji wrote:
tchan001 wrote:
On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak". :)
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.

This also coming from someone not on the list, but I don't feel like you ever gain the right or permission to call another player "weak" regardless of how strong you are. What does that really say, anyway? "Look at me! I'm really good at this game and you aren't as good as me. That means that you are inferior to me in this one aspect of our lives - but it would seem to imply that you are inferior to me overall because we both value this aspect of our lives. Look at how pathetic you are next to me!"

I don't feel that taunting or mocking an opponent is ever acceptable in go, but I feel this is especially true during a game. If you do this to random people on the Internet, stop now. Think of it this way: would you say these things in a live tournament setting? One where others are around and you are looking the other player in the face?

Now, if you know the person as a friend or fellow club member, then things are different. If you have a mutual understanding that trash talk is acceptable, then go ahead - it's your game, your friendship, your club, your culture. I can't fault that. And if a friend is one of these weaker players that needs to be brought down a peg, then maybe a taste of their own medicine is justified. However, you need to know the person.

I want to include a story with that, but I also don't want to take up much space. If you want to hear about the time I felt it was necessary to put down a weaker player, feel free to read it.

The only time I have ever done this was with one of my friends because he was doing it to me and I felt it was necessary to break his habit.

It was at my college go club. He was getting a big head after beating me in an even game for the first time. In our next game he started making comments like "You can't do that" and "Oh, please" about my moves. Sometimes he was right, other times he was wrong. Either way, I was getting quite tired of this and quite tense. Where had he picked up that habit? None of the other players in our club did this. I'd never done it to him. Wherever he learned this, it didn't matter to me. I knew it wasn't right.

So, after he made a particularly bad move, I declared "Wrong!" and proceeded to win the game by a solid margin.

For the next few games I did this reguarly when he made a mistake until he stopped being critical about my moves. Now such comments are rare in any game he plays. Another club member was grateful for this because it was happening to him as well.

It helps that I've never lost to him in an even game since that one loss. It really helps that now he needs 3 stones against me. But regardless of how strong I am compared to him, he shouldn't have mocked me during a game.

As for the argument that it encourages you to get stronger, I would have to disagree. Losing that first game to him was what encouraged me to get stronger - that week was when I first started to actively practice go outside of the club. All the taunting did was encourage me to shut him up.


Sure, but you also reap what you sow in this world.
Author:  tchan001 [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
moyoaji wrote:
tchan001 wrote:
On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak". :)
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.

This also coming from someone not on the list, but I don't feel like you ever gain the right or permission to call another player "weak" regardless of how strong you are. What does that really say, anyway? "Look at me! I'm really good at this game and you aren't as good as me. That means that you are inferior to me in this one aspect of our lives - but it would seem to imply that you are inferior to me overall because we both value this aspect of our lives. Look at how pathetic you are next to me!"

To me, it simply says "Being weak, you need to get stronger to be on the list :)"

I'd rather have a strong player tell me "You are weak and you need to study more. Here is how you should think about this game losing moment." rather than, "You are so strong, figure out why you lost on your own. I'm sure you're smart enough." But of course, this is my own preference.
Author:  Splatted [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
If you challenge a 3d to an even game people expect you to be around 3d. Of course they're going to think your weak when they see you playing like a kyu player because from a dan's perspective a 5k is weak. That's not an opinion it's a fact and I say it as someone who is also around 5k. We have basically no chance of beating them. They don't care if we're 5k or 10k and they probably can't tell the difference in an even game. It's an easy win either way.
Author:  Jermelle [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Okay I get unbanned quite soon. But the only issue is that my friends on KGS have told me (via. FaceBook) that they plan on harassing me until I crack again. This is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say "KGS trolls" Now I know the admins won't do anything about it this time because they think of it has teasing. But it's not, teasing and harassment are 2 very different things.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS trolls
Jermelle wrote:
Okay I get unbanned quite soon. But the only issue is that my friends on KGS have told me (via. FaceBook) that they plan on harassing me until I crack again. This is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say "KGS trolls" Now I know the admins won't do anything about it this time because they think of it has teasing. But it's not, teasing and harassment are 2 very different things.


Just put people who do that on the KGS equivalent of ignore and get on with life.
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