Big Brother Malkovich #2

Joaz Banbeck · **#21**

Lots of pro games have started this way, so I approve.

Phelan · **#22**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · **#23**

Approved.

Aphelion · **#24**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Change Count: B - 10, W - 10

Phelan · **#25**

Joaz Banbeck · **#26**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . , . B . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Solomon · **#27**

schultz · **#28**

Araban wrote:

Aphelion · **#29**

I'm a little surprised that Joaz changed my move, I thought that when you have a one stone vs one stone situation in the corner, its not urgent and it is always valid to take the empty corner. The good thing is, this move actually brings the game to more familiar ground for me - I am pretty alien to 5-4 joseki, whereas this pincer is something I play fairly often in my own games. I suspect that Joaz thinks dictating the direction of play here is worth more. Maybe he thinks there's a chance we can get sente out from this pincer?

The problem is, I think this sequence (which I expect to happen) leaves White with sente for the remaining corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Expected sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 1 . . O 6 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Continued.. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . X . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If the top right pans out like this is what I would aim at. I don't think White can really pincer :b3:

because there isn't a good direction for him to block the 3-3. I don't think this situation is bad for black, :b1:

and

both work well with my lower right corner. However, I am a little miffed that White gets to both establish a solid group on the top right while still getting to play in the empty corner. I feel that White's opening, while not wrong, was a little awkward because his D-4 stone was in the diagonal corner from his approach. I want to preserve that awkwardness for him as long as possible. So if at all possible I will try to emerge with sente after this corner sequence on the top right.

dfan · **#30**

Chew Terr · **#31**

Phelan · **#32**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: fixing something in my thoughts.

Aphelion · **#33**

Aphelion · **#34**

If Topazg does approve that move, this is my response. I will add my thoughts if this is indeed played out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · **#35**

Approved.

I'm torn. I want to get sente, really really badly. If we play this jump, can we ignore Black's followup? Probably, we're quite light, but how bad are the followups.. If we already had a stone in the top right I'd definitely play the one point jump, and look to pincer the top edge stone and attack as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . | $$ | . . . W . . . . 9 , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But we don't. So, what does Black do if we pass (read, take the top left)? Keima?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks kind of bad. However, with the two point in play this feels like it sort of works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not saying this is going to happen. But it feels possible, and the one point jump would be heavier to tenuki from without playing out the full joseki. I'll think about which top left corner point I want.

Joaz Banbeck · **#36**

Aphelion wrote:

If Topazg does approve that move, this is my response. I will add my thoughts if this is indeed played out.

@Aphelion: so it is still your move?

Phelan · **#37**

I think you have to approve his move now. But he should post his thoughts first, maybe?
I don't know if I'll be able to make a move before tuesday/wednesday afternoon because of an exam.

Joaz Banbeck · **#38**

Phelan wrote:

I think you have to approve his move now. But he should post his thoughts first, maybe?...

Yes, that was my point. I'd like to see where he is heading with this move, rather than just the move itself.

Aphelion · **#39**

Sorry about the down time, I'm on a roadtrip where Internet access has been flaky. This might be the last time I make a move before Wednesday. I'm still playing that move, these are some ideas I have:

Since we didn't tenuki to the open corner previously, its certainly not consistent to tenuki now. If White gets another move at the corner the marked exchange will start looking pretty bad for us. Furthermore, the whole idea was to put pressure on the white approach stone with our pincer, if we tenuki not only will White settle magnificently, it is us who will have to leave small in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Yuck -c Marked exchange looks horrible $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . B . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As to the actual white move, it feels...odd. However, I don't think it is a bad move as it gets out while treating the original stone lightly. White is clearly trying to set up a tenuki to the open corner now. The key weakness is its weak connection. My key goal is to reinforce my corner (which is under pressure) while not letting White fix his weakness easily. This rules the contact move at 'a' out, and I'm certainly not going to try to peep that shape prematurely. 'b' is also a vulgar move that not only does nothing against his stones, but even were he to respond the 'a' - 'b' exchange would just helping White strengthen himself. So the only moves I really considered are 'c' and 'd'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Moves to consider $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'd' is the first instinct, as prevents myself getting sealed in while keeping abreast of white. However, the problem with this move is that it feels thin to me. If I expect White to tenuki this shape, then this thinness will mute the severeness of any follow up I might have because White can make forcing moves against my stones. For example, the simple attempt to cut will expose my weakness:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Can't cut with 2 pt extension $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The one point jump is far more solid and makes the cut possible if White tenukis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc More solid position letting me cut $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although I am still "behind" White. White cannot forcibly seal me in because of the weakness in his position. I don't think me trying to cut is a good move right away, but it is something I can aim for if I manage to establish a stronger position on the top side. I am fairly certain that White will tenuki to the empty corner after my move, and depending on the way he does it I might be able to establish a more solid position on top. My goal right now is not to obsess over his 2 stones, but try to get stones on both the right and top in the natural flow of the fuseki. When the time presents itself, I may either choose to cut or attack those two stones on a far larger scale.

Aphelion · **#40**

I'm back....is the game dead?

Big Brother Malkovich #2

Who is online