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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #21 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:26 am 
Lives in gote
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Guys, somebody messed up the numbering. Fix please :D
I have a bit more time so I think I'll go over some of my previous moves.

Move 2:
Second move Tengen. Is it good? It's not necessarily bad but it definitely throws everything you know about go theory out of the window. But it suits my style since it's fast, influential and unconventional.

Move 6:
Not a lot to say about it. I approached the only asymmetrical corner with an ideal extension from the 44 point. I went high because we have tengen

Move 10:
This might be my first mistake :shock: I thought I read the ladder, but it doesn’t work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O W . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W B B W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O 2 7 . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think my team member really hates me now Image

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #22 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:49 am 
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Quote:
Guys, somebody messed up the numbering. Fix please

done but your post with move 8 has the misnumbering too (should be 10)

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #23 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:38 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O 5 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #24 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Whether or not Mnemonic knows this joseki, I don't think the next moves are hard to find.

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #25 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Image

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While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #26 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:03 pm 
Gosei
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Hmm, this doesn't really look good at all. I must have been misreading something earlier. Seems my K4 is either hurt or overconcentrated. While white's result seems excellent, we get the first bite at the big opening points, I think, of which I count three.

Edit: I think E4 is what I want to see played, but I don't know if I have good odds on that.
Edit: Or H3. Or a different move. Sorts of moves that run into K4 rather than tengen.

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Last edited by Loons on Thu May 19, 2011 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #27 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Oh man, reading these comments will be epic :mrgreen:

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While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #28 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Yes, it certainly will.

No, it certainly won't.


EDIT:
Okay, yes it will.

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #29 Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 1:00 am 
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KGS: tictac
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O B . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT: unhidden no idea where this is going
i think i really need to break the ladder on :bc: and in addition it block the right side
i also considered a and b briefly but then the ladder annoys me
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . a . O B . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2 ways to go for W (that i can think of):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


. not sure which of a or b is good so good thing it would be loons' choice
b is natural if it doesnt hurt the left but then W as

Or the atari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 6 4 . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a 5 X 2 X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


seems fair to me.,a is gote endgame so W has sente to play elsewhere? of course it will diverge before that..

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Last edited by perceval on Tue May 24, 2011 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #30 Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 6:50 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 324
Location: Dresden
Liked others: 26
Was liked: 22
Rank: KGS 7 kyu
KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We'll end in gote and Black will get a ponuki but I guess that is the price for my screw-up. The thing is I'm not even sure that we can kill that stone in the corner, but we can at least close it in and keep it small.

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #31 Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:09 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: :w1: :black:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X S X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wonder whether perce will fill the ko or try and fight it. While normally you fill this ko instantly, white's corner is so weak (and big!) and we have K4, it seems *we* might be able to fight it. I will be very happy if perce just fills the ko, that shows good fundamentals. I keep saying ko because mw42 will play F2 (it's the local move in this situation), and just E2 leaves a aji in the corner (E4 potential cut would be a burden for white locally).

PS: White's corner does seem to be 18 points and strong influence.

PPS: I think variations on the following situation come up quite often:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: @ :wc:
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O . . .
$$ . 4 . O X . .
$$ . . O X W X .
$$ . . . 2 1 . .
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ --------------[/go]

( :w4: might be different in context)

PPPS: Was my post-post-script useful and sensical, or non?

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Last edited by Loons on Fri May 20, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #32 Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:31 pm 
Lives in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: :w1: :black:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #33 Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:40 pm 
Gosei
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Not hidden:
A diversion: Some variations after :w6: .
(I seem unable to nest hide tags..?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

After which I guess black plays on top. Black is maintaining material advantage, white will incite some fighting. White's joseki direction is also better than black's, as a tradeoff.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B B O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here it seems to me white will fight strongly later. Extending along the bottom instead of C5 etc seemed to me discouraged by white tengen.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here it seems white is likely to play the last big opening point, also white might be in the mood for something like (because of tengen) :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Which I was not.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If I had thought of this at the time I might have played it, with a thought to maybe ab etc. (Though tenuki from a 3-4 approach is conventionally bad.)

...All of which seem quite playable.

Pincering

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I felt like any sort of pincer/counterpincer battle was going to activate all of white's stones.


Alternate 5s
If we wanted to threaten a shimari and sort of keep the ball in our court, we could also have started with the other stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I was of course (perhaps boringly) expecting:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black should be happy to be approached anywhere, and black's sides' big points are bigger. Of course, white has tengen to run to.

PS: I don't really see a need to hide this (other than the massive space it takes up), but perhaps a second opinion is in order? Shall I mark it "safe to read"?

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Last edited by Loons on Thu May 26, 2011 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #34 Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 5:44 am 
Gosei

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #35 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:40 am 
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kooooooooooooooooooooooo :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :w1: :black:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT: unhidden

Lots of back and forth for me on this move.

My first instinct was to fill:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 B fills the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 O X. . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 B descended at :b15:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but then if we compare with the descent at :b15: we have one less point so not optimal, + the whole sequence feels like a loss for B as W a big Corner + influence in the deal.

So i searched quite a bit for a way to live in the corner but i didnt find anything where i felt confident.

So i almost resigned myself to fill and accept a local loss, when it occured to me that we don't have a lot to lose in the ko:



here is the situation if we win:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 B wins the ko (unlikely)
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W corner is devasted we have won a lot

.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 W wins (expected)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X b . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here if we compare with filling, W has only 1-2 points more, ++ the local follow up at a and b
Whnat decided me to try this is that the hoshi stone is well placed here to mitigate those follow up: thanks to it i think W follo up are just endgame.
in exchange if we lose the ko we have 2 moves vs one if we fill and W connects.
In addition W might not connect after we fill anf take sente for himself.

So i expect us to lose this ko (W will fill asap)but its not a big deal for us

i probably talked myself into a bad move as is typical on malkovitch :-?
we'll see.
my son really wants me to put the smiley of the clapping man so here goes :clap:

i'll be interested in inputs after this sequence is over

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Last edited by perceval on Tue May 24, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #36 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 6:35 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O # 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope Mnemonic fills the ko before Loons plays.

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #37 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:11 am 
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Actually it was my move, but I guess taking the ko here was the obvious move. :D

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #38 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:42 am 
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Sorry. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #39 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:27 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really would have liked a filled ko instead.

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 Post subject: Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2
Post #40 Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:50 am 
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So how do we continue from here? I guess mw42 should just play on so that we can keep the original order. Of course our stronger player has then moved 3 times in a row but like I said: taking the ko was the only move. Image

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