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3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=72		 Page 4 of 15
Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 Move 56 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X 1 X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

only move for me
Author:  Phelan [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
I wonder if magicwand just played the safe move as a preference, or if there was something bad I didn't see about playing L13.
Author:  Phelan [ Sun May 02, 2010 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Does anyone know where Daniel_the_smith is?
I can't wait for people to move in this game... :razz:
Author:  Harleqin [ Sun May 02, 2010 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Phelan wrote:
I wonder if magicwand just played the safe move as a preference, or if there was something bad I didn't see about playing L13.


The bad thing about L13 is that Black can immediately cut at O13.
Author:  Phelan [ Sun May 02, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Argh. I suppose I can't read that, can I? :razz:
Author:  Harleqin [ Sun May 02, 2010 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Magicwand wrote:
For you to get stronger you must first distinguish if what your opponent plays is an overplay or not.
Then you find the move that will overcome that play by reading skills.


I'd like to pull out this quote to comment on it. I believe that this attitude is wrong. Intuition is important, but it cannot overrule the facts. So, if you have the hunch that something might be an overplay, you have to read out what you can do. If you cannot find a way to exploit it to your advantage, you will have to assume that it is not an overplay. Still trying to "overcome" it by playing the hardest moves you can find can then only lead to tears.

I wonder how Magicwand overcomes the cognitive dissonance of screaming "overplay" at every second of his opponents' moves and still, like everyone else, losing 50% of his games.

This is not meant to offend him, but I think that it should be mentioned.
Author:  Magicwand [ Sun May 02, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Harleqin wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
For you to get stronger you must first distinguish if what your opponent plays is an overplay or not.
Then you find the move that will overcome that play by reading skills.


I'd like to pull out this quote to comment on it. I believe that this attitude is wrong. Intuition is important, but it cannot overrule the facts. So, if you have the hunch that something might be an overplay, you have to read out what you can do. If you cannot find a way to exploit it to your advantage, you will have to assume that it is not an overplay. Still trying to "overcome" it by playing the hardest moves you can find can then only lead to tears.

I wonder how Magicwand overcomes the cognitive dissonance of screaming "overplay" at every second of his opponents' moves and still, like everyone else, losing 50% of his games.

This is not meant to offend him, but I think that it should be mentioned.


there is a famous quote my my master's master named "cho nam chul"
"if the shape looks funny there is tesuji there to be found."

it's like a solving a problem with knowing the answer. all you have to do is find how you got there.
it is much easier to solve them if you know the answer.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 03, 2010 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Sorry guys, it was a busy weekend :) I'll play soon.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 03, 2010 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Move 56 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . 1 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is that stone important?

I want to play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Move 56 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |[/go]


on account of shape, but...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Move 56 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X 5 4 2 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . 3 . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Everything stays connected like this. :b59: can be at :w60: for a more complicated sequence which I think also lets us connect; White gets a second eye this way, but maybe not if we play like that. hmm...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Move 56 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . 5 O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 3 2 6 . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . 7 4 X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That looks fine for us, but :w62: could be a ko threat at n3, a move I definitely don't want to encourage white to make. Q8 might be a threat for us, but I think white can get two threats if they start at m4.

Just connecting that stone seems very passive, though. It does keep white to just one eye, so we'll get forcing moves, but is that enough? Maybe, I think we came out ahead in the bottom right.

I guess I'll connect on the rich men don't pick fights principle. On KGS I'd definitely push through that gap. I have a feeling Violence wants me to push through like I want to. :(

...I almost changed it, but I won't. I know I have a tendency to play too thinly, so this will be my overcompensation.
Author:  Phelan [ Tue May 04, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Just teminding topazg that it's his turn.
Author:  iSoma [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Phelan wrote:
Argh. I suppose I can't read that, can I? :razz:


I think he meant more like N13. And yes you can.
Author:  topazg [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
EDIT: I've moved:P

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm58 Move 58 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm58 Move 58 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . a O X X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've decided that this move both threatens to make an eye and steal the corner, and also activates the aji with the followup at "a". Both "b" and "c" look like fun followups as well. Lots to do, lots of fun to have :)

Further edit: Ideally, I'm hoping we can make an eye in sente in this corner, and then look to invade at "d". Then in my opinion White has a realistic chance in the game again.
Author:  Jordus [ Tue May 04, 2010 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 Move 59 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was hoping white would play somewhere non-trivial because I have a sequence up my sleeve break their game. More details on that later.

Since white played towards the corner, We have a possible 20+ points at stake here. I contemplated a few moves.

This one seemed bad to me because it gives white a chance to attack into the corner at a and the chance to take the side(marked with blue lines). Same thing goes for :b1: at a. That leaves that side open for whites taking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ {LN R8 R5}
$$ {LN R8 T8}
$$ {LN R5 T5}
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Tue May 04, 2010 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Good move from white. I'm not sure if I regret my move or not. I think I'd like :b59: to be on s3 and not s4.
Author:  Phelan [ Tue May 04, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
iSoma, you're evil! :sad:

Move coming later, or tomorrow morning.
Author:  Violence [ Tue May 04, 2010 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Approved.

EDIT: Er... wait... wrong Malkovich...
Author:  Jordus [ Tue May 04, 2010 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Glad to see my move was approved :lol:
Author:  iSoma [ Wed May 05, 2010 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Phelan wrote:
iSoma, you're evil! :sad:


What? Because I said you can read it? I did not mean to offend you, if it was for you I am sorry. I did not mean it.
Author:  topazg [ Wed May 05, 2010 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
iSoma wrote:
Phelan wrote:
iSoma, you're evil! :sad:


What? Because I said you can read it? I did not mean to offend you, if it was for you I am sorry. I did not mean it.


Hehe, I think it's because you didn't say "yes you can" outside of the hide box, which meant he didn't see it as he didn't want to open that hide box either. On top of that, you clearly quoted him, which makes it even more "Man! I really want to know what he said" :razz:
Author:  Phelan [ Wed May 05, 2010 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1
Yep, that's it. I haven't been opening any hide tags that don't explicitly say I can. And it's driving me crazy wanting to know what's hidden there. :P
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