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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #81 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:55 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 2 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This is one of those situations where I tell people, If you don't cut, it's not go. OC, :b45: could be wrong, but in that case so is :b43:. IMO, OC. ;) Now, without :bc: in place, the hane at "a" might well be better, but it might be better than :b43:, as well.

Edit: Unhidden.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon May 11, 2015 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #82 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:08 am 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


There is no other move for me here.

Any other move in the local area feels pointless. I must attempt to keep my stones connected, even when my opponent will certainly cut. And even if I'm cut, it creates a hane at the head of two stones shape for me, at least. How bad can that be?

My goal here, as before, is not to have everything live. If everything lives here easily, then I think this game is going far too well for me.

After the cut, I have several options. The atari is one since I'm willing to give up P9, but that seems crude. Perhaps Q6 to link up with my P5 stone? The hane underneath at S9 also looks interesting.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #83 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:01 am 
Judan

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Sometimes dodging like this is plausible, though of course then black doesn't have the opportunity to be stupid and peep instead of cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #84 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:16 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I'll mention the other natural move of :b43: , which would be my choice after :b41: (black lacks the lead to play 'a'). It's infinitely more stylish than bumping one's head and cutting. By which I mean it has less problems.

Of course, it's an attacking move and white seems modestly hard to hound, though perhaps it would be rewarding.

Actually, white doesn't have time to take gote in both the bottom right and top.

Oh, and to keep the actual game in sight:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

To disagree with Bill, I feel the cut is not the most correct move here anyway.

Wait, 43 through 45 totally vindicates black and is simply better than my proposal, this is devastating for white.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #85 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:42 pm 
Judan

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@Loons

White doesn't need to play 46 though, he can defend the cut somehow and treat the lower stone lightly, it still has p3 aji for sabaki, which turns 43 into a bad move (p10/11 gain power). Not saying that's bad for black, but I don't think white needs to cry.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #86 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:58 pm 
Gosei
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@Uberdude
Could you give me an example of how you would proceed given Q8, or do you feel it was unequivocally bad (v. your lighter pattern)? I do feel :b45: made :w44: bad and thus vindicated :b43: .

I'll concede I include and disinclude odd diagrammatic moves in my diagrams.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #87 Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:33 am 
Judan

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Maybe like this if you don't cut? Next if black a white can try to make something around the lower side or attack 1 and sort of connect up his group around n14.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . a O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


As black probably I would cut to develop the upper centre (aiming at a), maybe like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 5 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #88 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:56 pm 
Lives in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Normally, if one pushes into a keima, one should cut afterwards. However in this case...:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 7 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 8 . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


... white would get some forcing moves and it would be too easy for him to settle.

With the peep instead, the white group remains still eyeless. I don't think that I will be able to kill it, however white will have to spend additional moves and I can either get some profit in the center or invade the top side.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #89 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:03 pm 
Oza

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schawipp wrote:
Normally, if one pushes into a keima, one should cut afterwards. However in this case...:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . a O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 7 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . b 6 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 8 . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


... white would get some forcing moves and it would be too easy for him to settle.


Setting aside the question if whether this is the best line after cutting: white settles in a way, but aji remains at A and possibly relating to B, and black just consolidated 4th line territory on the right in sente. Is this actually bad for black?

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #90 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:57 am 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I don't even... :shock:

I suppose my opponent didn't have to cut. He could have played the hane at P9 to stay solid. He could have split me at P6 to try to attack my stones by leaning on the other one. He could have even played tenuki and followed up on the top with H16, M17, etc. But never, in all my thoughts about what my opponent would play did I consider this move.

And I don't think it's very good. Why would my opponent peep when he can cut? That violates an essential fundamental of go: Keep your stones connected and your opponent's stones disconnected. Not only did he let me connect, but he let me do so while putting him in broken shape.

Is he trying to make me heavy? If so, I don't think this is the way to go about it. This feels less like he is making me heavy and more like he is making me strong. This group now has 6 liberties and is wrapped firmly around two of his stones while cutting one off solidly. The one that is cut off is far from any black stones on the other side and this connection here even helps me to possibly connect to my P5 stone later.

Perhaps I take the fundamentals too seriously? Is it that I hold too rigidly to ideas that I should be willing to let go? I don't think so. Which means either I completely misunderstand how go works, or my opponent made a mistake. :-|

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #91 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:58 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I think there is not much choice. O7 seems a kind of vital point for eyeshape of the w formation. If w gets this move, e.g. ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . b 6 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

... then w would easily settle and I have a weak structure. W has continuations at (a)-(c) and seems to have no more problems.

Another advantage of my actual :b47: is that it threatens to cut off P5 which is not small. Therefore w might want to connect and I can keep a better initiative in the center, e. g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 5 4 O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This feels more comfortable even if w may get some aji at the bottom.

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Post #92 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:29 pm 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 773
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Liked others: 143
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 8 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I said in my last comment that my opponent has made me strong here. So, with that thought in mind, I am turning the tables. It is time to attack! :twisted:

It would seem that schawipp thinks he is strong in the area and that I have become heavy. But I say that I am strong and my opponent is heavy.

I considered using this move to connect my stones, but the reading following that is the reason I chose to play the move that I did.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Everyone connects
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 2 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This seems like it lets black off a bit easy. I think he made a mistake. Shouldn't that mean I get some sort of option to punish? With a simple knights move, suddenly the center is looking like it could be his again and his two stones that seemed so far from help are almost connected back. I saw that, if I was playing as black, I would want to play at N5. So I'm taking that move for myself.

Maybe it's just my reaction to move 45 talking, but I'm currently guessing that black will peep at O6 to force another connection. :lol:

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Post #93 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:48 pm 
Gosei
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Perhaps I am closer in rank to the players than the dude is.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

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Post #94 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:12 am 
Judan

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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
There is a problem of a cut here (next does black need to defend r4 or can he run with the cutting stone?):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My first feeling for white is to try to fix that cut in sente with this attach, the simple plan being:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 5 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White could also think about crosscut and there are quite a few tricky variations to consider. Also black can try resisting, in some of those white gets cut and sacrifices the top 4 stones for now in exchange for munching the corner which seems fine to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 1 8 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O 3 X 6 . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #95 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:00 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 8 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It's difficult to foresee the development in the center. Anyway it doesn't feel bad to separate the white stones. If white also cuts, I plan following sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This looks rather doubtful for w. Thus, probably - instead of :w50: - white will continue jumping into the center and things will get more complicated.

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Post #96 Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:16 pm 
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Posts: 773
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, if I plan to attack the black stones, I can't let them connect. I had two ways to cut.

Why did I choose this way?

First, the general rule is: cut the knight's move on the far side. I'm stronger toward the top, so I should cut toward the bottom.

Second, after reading for a while, I didn't like the position after the other cut. While I would have a tiger's mouth toward the bottom, that shape has several glaring weaknesses that black could exploit immediately. The peep at O4 would be no fun. Additionally, his corner enclosure is left in a much stronger position.

So I'm going to stick to fundamental principles because my reading doesn't show me any reason why violating them would be beneficial.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #97 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:32 am 
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Posts: 420
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I guess, this time there is really no choice. However I have to check very carefully, if I can proceed with my original plan:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O 5 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 8 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This looks like a big failure. Therefore, I will probably have to use :b53: to reinforce the corner (e.g. R4) instead playing around L7.

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Post #98 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:05 pm 
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Posts: 773
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I'm mainly just putting this hide here out of force of habit. This move was inevitable.

Let's see, what to talk about? Well, keeping up with this game and my correspondence ones has been my main source of go since Tuesday. But tomorrow my college club will be bringing go and xiangqi to a meeting of the Chinese club. I hope to introduce the game to some new players then. Maybe one or two will like the games enough to come to our club's meeting the next day. :tmbup:

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #99 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:30 pm 
Lives in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, its an empty triangle... :oops: However - as we have already seen above - I must not tenuki and give white an atari on the Q6 stone. Originally, I planned a more quite and solid move like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


However, after :w54: and :w56: white gets easily an eye at the right border. Therefore I thought about how to prevent the atari and this white eye simultaneously. The result might be a bit ugly but the cut below anyway seems protected now, e. g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, let's go for it...

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #100 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:02 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2494
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
schawipp wrote:
Yes, its an empty triangle... :oops: However - as we have already seen above - I must not tenuki and give white an atari on the Q6 stone. Originally, I planned a more quite and solid move like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


However, after :w54: and :w56: white gets easily an eye at the right border. Therefore I thought about how to prevent the atari and this white eye simultaneously. The result might be a bit ugly but the cut below anyway seems protected now, e. g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, let's go for it...


To me, the perceived need for an empty triangle here, which still has shape issues, points to a mistake in previous moves. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it was the peep at :b45:.

That said, I would rather has just drawn back at R4 and used white's making an eye on the side as impetus to attack the other group, since the corner would be stable. That's why black cut in the first place, right?

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