The probe has done its work. There is enough aji in the probe that it can live, but at the same time White is burdened in playing one more move there to eliminate the aji. The corner would be big, but 7 moves for a corner is not very efficient. If he leaves it alone, I will probably revive it once my center group is settled so it won't be a burden. And of course, if he invests another move in the corner then I'll just take another big move (Q10).

On a side note, I'm not a fan of the shimari. However I think the shimari is appropriate here as it keeps the top under control. White's upper left is strong, so I just need to neutralize its influence.

another basic count:
now he has about 22 + alpha points.
my all i need on top influence is about 16 ~ 20 points to stay even.
if i get sente i will have even big corner.
also if i approach "a" and if he has to invade..he will have two weak group.
it would be game over if that happens.
i think i am maintaining my komi sofar.

i see so many discussions by obs.
ask me question if you have any question..also let me know if the quality of comments i made sofar.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . a . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pincers and a good extension from J4, can't go wrong with that. And to boot, it's my favorite pincer. Why? No idea, but the shape is aesthetically pleasing to me. And there are some interesting hamete w/ it too.

Thoguh I thought that I understood the concept of a probe, I do not quite understand what has been accomplished by playing the 3-3.

Namely, the following marked exchange has been made, right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why not simply leave this option for later?

If this is called a probe, there seems to suggest the possibility that an alternative move might be chosen by MW at a later time. For example, he might play here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case, you can still live, right?

My main question is, if white's response to the 3-3 does not affect the life/death status of your group, why do you need his answer via a probe right now? Why not simply save the aji for later and immediately enclose the corner?

You have been making great comments so far. What do you think about Araban's 3-3 play + tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . X O . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Was there benefit to playing the 3-3 and then playing away? Would you have played a different way?

Also, are there any major mistakes that you see in this game?

personally i dont think the probe was necessary. but it is a probe..which means he wont lose any (visible) points.
my reasoning:
1. he had 3x3 point invasion anytime.
2. by marked exchange his one stone on the side loses it's aji making my influence grow.

his style is 100% point oriented game. it will fall apart like janga once it reachs the critical point.
right now i dont have any point pressure because i know i will get compensations out of my influence.
but i think he is starting to feel influence pressure.

even his corner defense i didnt like. if i was black i would play other marked point.
he will need to tradeoff his points for thickness orelse this game will not last too long.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W . X O . . . . . a C X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . C , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Like Kirby, I don't really understand the value of the "probe" at 3-3...

Also, could you explain why you rejected this move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . a . 1 . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Locally, I'd say that white does not really have a satisfactory followup, but black does. 'a' is out of the question for white: he'd get terribly overconcentrated, and the corner would still be open. But something like 'b' feels pretty overplayish too, because might be sente now (at least, I hate below, but tenuki also doesn't feel right to me...):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 3 . . 1 . . 2 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 6 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks for the comments. I can understand your rationale about the probe. In regard to the following comment:


I do not know if my own style reflects it, but I must say that I feel more comfortable with more points - so I can understand someone that likes a "point oriented game".

But you said that you don't have any point pressure because you know you "will get compensations out of my influence".

How can you be certain that you will get compensation? Also, even if you know you will get compensation, how do you quantify it and know that it will be enough to counter the points that black has?

i used to be point oriented also.
i know how import the point is. but lee changho changed the point oriented game into thickness oriented game.
if you go after the point you might reach a point where you can not streach your points no more.
then you will lose points here there everywhere and lose.

but thickness oriented game is different. you are comfortable as long as you maintain the point balance upto certain degree.
then you must be able to tell howmuch your thickness worth. which will come when you reach next level up.

one good example: my recent game against topazg is a perfect example.
i think i maintain the balance of point and thickness up to certain point.
and i got greedy try to distroy his whole bottom.
but actually it was a mistake on my part.
i was winning playing thick and didnt need to invade.
i am trying not to make that mistake in this game.

for your question: experience will tell you if your thickness is enough.
most professionals in korea will try not to comment who is better.
they usually say "if this part is settled then we can get accurate count".
i think that is exactly the situation here.
it all depends on who gets sente and how does one gets sente.
i already explained what is big and where is urgent and i know my opponent is thinking samething.
as of now i dont think i am losing.

You say it will cost him 7 stones to secure the TL corner. 6 already played and one still to be added. That is not efficient, you say. Shouldn't you subtract the two stones you are going to loose in this calculation?

I'm so tempted to write a long-winded defense on why my probe was fine...

...but after some much-needed sleep and thinking more clearly about what I played, I'm pretty sure that is not the case and that the probe was really a mistake, although a minor one. Nonetheless I'll try to explain the thought process behind why I played the probe.

Usually, direct benefits can't be seen from a probe. They are often played to "test the waters" and get a sense for what the future holds (e.g., what the opponent has in mind so you can do as much as you can to prevent it.) In my case, there were two reasons I chose to play it:

• I figured the direction that MW chose to block would give me additional information on what he had in mind. Like how a probe in SC2 gathers minerals, a probe in Go gathers information.
• More importantly, it seemed to my benefit that it'd force him to make a decision now that may be a decision he may not have wanted to have made in the future.

So basically I wanted to make the future more certain for myself. However, as nice and dandy as these reasons may sound, there are problems behind it.

• Regarding the first reason, the direction he chose to block doesn't really give me any additional information because there is really no reason why he'd want to block the other way. It'd kick my F17 back from the dead, give me an easy corner, and he'd enclose a side that's not even guaranteed territory yet.
• Following what I said earlier, there are hardly any possible/realistic scenarios in the future where he would have said "Damn, if only I had played C16 instead of D17, then surely I'd be better off.". The worth of a probe is entirely dependent on how probable this sort of scenario is, where the opponent, had he chosen move Y over move X when the probe was played, would be better off.

So overall I gained very little, if anything at all. And what did I lose? I think the most glaring loss is that I lost the possibility of playing at D17 instead of C17, which could have been more appropriate in the future than a direct corner invasion depending on what was going on at the top and the status of my center group. This isn't severe, but the loss is greater than the gain, therefore the probe was bad.

TL;DR: I got a bit carried away probing, threw away the opportunity to play D17.

To gaius: the suggestion for the mini-mini Chinese (is that official terminology yet?) is not bad at all and your sequence looks fair. However, the mini-mini Chinese doesn't make any guarantees at the top. Also, while F17 still has plenty of aji left as you illustrated with , I'd rather not use it to simply make a two-space extension at the top. In your diagram, White only has 1 group to take care of, while I have 2.

Indeed, another mistake on my part. Nonetheless, the jist remains the same.

Either hane direction is fine; I just like this one because there are more variations.

i think he is losing his cool.
imo he must trade off his points for thickness but he is giving me more thickness to gain more points.
i predict that he will soon have to invade my growing influence and either get killed or lose by few points.

I like playing moves the opponent doesn't expect, it's a strange habit.

why is he treating me like skd?

This pattern is worth remembering, not just for corners.