32. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

Kirby · **#181**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm109 Move 109 - Prisoners: B=5, W=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X B X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#182**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm110 Move 110 - Prisoners: B=5, W=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | W X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#183**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm111 Move 111 - Prisoners: B=5, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X B O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#184**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm112 Move 112 - Prisoners: B=5, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X 2 X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#185**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm115 Move 115 - Prisoners: B=6, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | B O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#186**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm116 Move 116 - Prisoners: B=5, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . W X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#187**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm117 Move 117 - Prisoners: B=6, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O B X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#188**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm118 Move 118 - Prisoners: B=6, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | W X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#189**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm119 Move 119 - Prisoners: B=6, W=8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O B . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#190**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm120 Move 120 - Prisoners: B=6, W=8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O 3 1 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 2 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#191**

Even if I ignore your future threats, and even if you answer my two threats here, I have no other threats. I have lost.

Thank you very much for playing. I hope that it was not too boring for you. I was a bit silly with the bottom left corner, but I thought that it was my only chance. I hope that you understand.

Edit: You moved already, but the result is the same. Thank you for playing.

Magicwand · **#192**

Kirby wrote:

Even if I ignore your future threats, and even if you answer my two threats here, I have no other threats. I have lost.

Thank you very much for playing. I hope that it was not too boring for you. I was a bit silly with the bottom left corner, but I thought that it was my only chance. I hope that you understand.

Edit: You moved already, but the result is the same. Thank you for playing.

it was very entertaining game. thank you.
i hope you read whatever few comment i left and hopefully it help you see how i think.

if you wish to play me again PM me anytime. maybe one more handycap stone should give you a better chance.

thank you again.

Kirby · **#193**

The comments are a bit amusing so far. I'll try to respond to some of the comments left by the observers in a little bit.

Kirby · **#194**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Yeah, that was an especially low point in the game. I thought the top group was too weak a little too late. I didn't read ahead well enough.

Bill Spight wrote:

I guess that I can understand this. I should have split the groups as you said.

Violence wrote:

I'm sorry that I didn't win the game, Violence. Thanks for your support. Though I made some stupid mistakes, I feel good about this game (even after reading the comments :-p) because I wanted to play an educational game against a stronger player, and I think that I achieved that to some degree.

HKA wrote:

I agree. I very much appreciate Magicwand's presence here on the forums.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Move 49 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . B . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems premature. Were I black, I would have played this first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm49 Move 49 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can't let black have C13, and has to play something like C14 himself. But the coming fight is going to be in the center, and black's move will be worth more than white's.

I actually had this exact move in mind, Joaz. I decided against it in the game, because I wasn't totally sure if my corner invasion would work (it didn't), so I didn't want to give away territory for free before-hand. I didn't know how it would turn out.

Araban wrote:

This cracks me up! I think I've found a new avatar:)

topazg wrote:

I opted against this, because it seemed to give white more eyespace. I thought I had to do something against the corner for sure to win. In the game, it didn't work out anyway, though, so of course the sequence you gave is better.

topazg wrote:

I was talking about the ko at "a" (I edited your diagram), but at least some sequences starting with "b" seem to lead to a double ko for white, so I was flawed in my reasoning anyway.

SpongeBob · **#195**

Lol, great that you have been provided with some new avatars :mrgreen:

Numsgil · **#196**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So help a newb out here and answer some questions for me

As I read it, black has 3 eye liberties (4 eye space = big eye = 5 liberties. Then subtract 2 for white stones already in it). Plus one internal liberty plus one internal ko.

White has 1 eye liberty plus one internal liberty plus one external liberty plus one internal ko.

So the score for the capture race is black 4 + internal ko and white 3 + internal ko. Black has more exclusive liberties, so he is the "favorite".

Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?

Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)

Question 3: Not so much a question. But however I read it out, black is at a distinct advantage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 3 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O 1 X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 2 X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then this: when white fills in the internal liberty at 5, it means he gives black a direct ko for his own death.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 1 ko threat somewhere, 2 answers. 4 ko threat, white ignores $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 3 X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | 6 O X 5 O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White is in a direct ko for his own death. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 2 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . 1 X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | X . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And it's hard to see any ko threat white can muster worth that much. So instead, it ends up like this. White will tennuki. But whenever black wants, he can force the direct ko. So black definitely has the advantage here, since he takes first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 5 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . 2 X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | 1 4 X 3 O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Solomon · **#197**

Numsgil wrote:

Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?

Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)

Both of these questions can be answered simultaneously. If Black plays E4, then White will just fill the ko and it becomes seki. Actually it's not seki, but it's fake seki because the E10 group is pretty much dead, so E4 really does nothing.

Numsgil · **#198**

Araban wrote:

Numsgil wrote:

Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?

Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)

Both of these questions can be answered simultaneously. If Black plays E4, then White will just fill the ko and it becomes seki. Actually it's not seki, but it's fake seki because the E10 group is pretty much dead, so E4 really does nothing.

Oh, I see now. If it goes E4->connect ko->black D1 then white can capture black's group because of a shortage of liberties.

Always miss those

Bill Spight · **#199**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm86 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 1 X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is an interesting ko. Just looking at the corner, it has the potential of becoming a 10,000 year ko. Black has approach moves before that happens, however. It is complicated by the fact that the Black stones on the left side might die. If Black captures all the White stones in the corner, then those stones live. OTOH, if White lives in the corner by making a local seki, then if those Black stones die, the seki becomes a false seki and the Black stones in the corner die. Conversely, if those Black stones die locally, the only hope to save them is to capture the White stones in the corner. If they live, then the corner ko is smaller.

This interdependence between the corner and the side raises the tricky question of which it is better to play in. My feeling at the time was that the fight in the side and center should come first. However, because of the interdependence, I could not say so definitively. Yesterday I experimented with some interdependent positions with fewer Black stones at stake on the side. Even in such a position it was better for each player to play on the side first.

So in this position I think that White should leave the ko and attack the Black group on the side. Perhaps the best play is one he made later, at "a", to take away Black's eye potential there.

What about the corner if Black is alive on the side? There is a saying in go that a three move approach ko is no ko. To kill White Black has to make four approach moves. After that there will be an enormous ko which White takes first. Even if Black can win that ko, playing an approach move is only a large endgame move. A more practical goal is seki, and then playing an approach move is a middle endgame move.

Bill Spight · **#200**

Numsgil wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . a X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So help a newb out here and answer some questions for me

As I read it, black has 3 eye liberties (4 eye space = big eye = 5 liberties. Then subtract 2 for white stones already in it). Plus one internal liberty plus one internal ko.

Black has 1 liberty in the eye, at "a".

Quote:

White has 1 eye liberty plus one internal liberty plus one external liberty plus one internal ko.

So the score for the capture race is black 4 + internal ko and white 3 + internal ko. Black has more exclusive liberties, so he is the "favorite".

As Araban has pointed out, White can live by filling the ko. Even if the Black stones one the side were alive, there is no such thing as the capturing race in the corner. Either player can aim for seki. In such a case Black can make a kind of 10,000 year ko by filling in White's outside liberty.

Quote:

Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?

Just looking at the corner, if Black wants to capture the White stones he has to take the ko first to prevent White from making seki.

Quote:

Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)

No. How would White reply to it?

Quote:

Question 3: Not so much a question. But however I read it out, black is at a distinct advantage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 3 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O 1 X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 2 X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a mistake. As it is, Black has one liberty in the eye.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O 1 X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | 3 2 X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

should just take.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . 4 X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | X . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After

Black has 2 liberties in the eye. White has spent one move to give Black a liberty.

32. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

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