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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #21 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:34 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i think i can get sente. is sente that important??? i think yes..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #22 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:28 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I Feel So Impatient Now! :-|
I feel a bit impatient now, so it's a little hard for me to make the move I've chosen. As I've mentioned in my previous analysis, I would really like to defend at F5. I want to get a good position on the bottom since I've invested in giving Magicwand some points for a wall.

So considering that, I would like to play F5 immediately. But I think that doing that is too impatient, because it leaves too much aji against the bottom of my wall. Since I've already invested in making a wall, I don't want to jump the gun and lose what I've gotten.

Some examples:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . b 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I play at "a", there is some aji at "b". If I play at "b", white can continue to push and get more territory. Yes, it's on the second line, but it's also making me a bit over-concentrated. On the right side I like pushing him on the second line because I generate more power.

On the bottom, though, rather than power, I get a clump of over-concentration... That's my feeling, anyway.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's also aji around :w2: in the diagram above, which would help Magicwand a lot in invading the area.

So the conclusion is, while I want to play someplace else - I feel very, very impatient right now - it's probably not the best idea. I need to be patient.

The first possibility I considered locally was:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 3 2 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . y X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But after white 2, there is some aji at x and y, which could cause problems later - maybe it will make it easier for Magicwand to invade.

So then I considered, locally, this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The move above seems to go better in terms of getting rid of aji, and I almost played it.... But I felt that being simple might be better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Simply playing solidly like this takes away aji, and makes a solid wall. I invested in having a solid wall, and now I have it. I feel impatient... But I feel like I have to play this move.

The additional benefit is that the 5 space extension from my center bottom stone seems pretty ideal.

Next, I can look forward to Magicwand's invasion, or his approach of my top right stone. I will keep the same goals in mind as I had in the previous post. I will do my best.

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #23 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:55 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if i dont play as above then he will play as below. so i will make sure he doesnt.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 3 O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


this is what i expect... a~d is my right. this look better than above variation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 4 . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a c . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #24 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:20 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As per previous analysis, "screw it, I can't stand it anymore".

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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #25 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:22 am 
Gosei
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KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
I don't know what kind of a joseki book magicwand found r5 in. One written by a 10k? Has a pro ever played it? Heck, I bet 1k's don't play it. I'm really surprised he played it in spite of his tingling spidy sense.

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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #26 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:53 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

he has made a mistake by tenuki.
i think i am already ahead and will win easily.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #27 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:04 am 
Lives in sente
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I applaud the spirit of Kirby's last move. :D

White's prospects seem rather bad now.

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Post #28 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Move 23 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . B . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As stated in an earlier post, the bad part about letting white crawl in here, as opposed to on the side is that I become a little over-concentrated.

However, the good part is that, if white pushes in here a lot, I'll become pretty solidified on the bottom. Currently, it looks to me like white might get around 15 points on the bottom left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O x |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O x x |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O x x |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O x |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . B . X O x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x x x x |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This seems OK to me, because I feel like I can probably get more than that from my center influence. The bad part, I guess is that he has played in both of the left two corners. But I still think that it's anybody's game.

By the way, I thought about pushing down on the second line, but there's not a guarantee that he'll connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe white will take this as an opportunity to play a stone further into the area on the bottom... So, I'd rather play as I did in the game for now.

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 Post subject: Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby
Post #29 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:35 am 
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KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Move 24 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is what i expect. i am already ahead so i will take it slow..
right side is not urgent because i have a~c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Move 24 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 7 . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #30 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:46 am 
Lives in sente
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Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . C . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He has made a mistake by tenuki.
I think I am already ahead and will win easily.


(I added Black's next move as :ec: to the diagram.)

OK, first let's look at the territory. White has made about 10 points in the lower right, and the lower left should perhaps also be counted as 10 for him. The top, with a hoshi of each colour, probably cancels out. Black has no territory yet.

Second, let's look at power (influence and thickness). Do you think that Black's formation on the lower side is worth more or less than 20 points?

I am quite convinced that it is far more than 20 points. We will have to see how well Black is able to transform his advantage into points in the end, but so far, Magicwand's optimism is not warranted at all.

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Post #31 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:05 am 
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Haha, I really enjoy following magicwand's games. First of all, W 12 is really terrible and goes against all fundamentals in Go.. You should try to be ahead of your opponent in running fights, not intentionally letting your opponent get ahead..

But Magicwand justiy his mistake by "below is what i expect. yes white has lost some points in below variation.
if it was a stronger or equal strength player i would never play as below.
but i think i am stronger than he is so losing some points here will not decide the outcome of the game.".

Is he trying to say that he deliberately let his opponent get a very good position because he feels he is stronger (and how does he figure that out in 10 moves? :).

Then both W 20 and W 22 is big mistakes. Why play on the second line when you dont have to? Especially W 22 is yose, at least with W 20 there he can invade the whole area pretty easy. White is clearly behind in this game.

But according to Magicwand, he is already ahead and his _opponent_ made the mistakes. I really wished he commented more on his own moves, he is so funny :D


This post by Fredrik was liked by: Solomon
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Post #32 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:43 am 
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Here I disagree with Magicwand's assessment. I think that Black has pulled ahead on the board. (OC, the skill difference is in his favor.)

I agree with Kirby's tenuki. Black's thickness on the right reduces the effect of White's jump into the bottom side on the second line. However, I think that the top side would have been bigger than the one space jump.

As for Magicwand's undervaluation of Black's thickness, I expect that he has had good success in reducing such thickness.

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Post #33 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:59 am 
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It's interesting that he highly values his own thickness in other games, however. (vs. Dusk Eagle, vs. wms, etc.)

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Post #34 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Cool, a lot of comments! I wonder how stupid my analysis sounds... I think I'm going to have to think of strategy for a bit, so I'm going to think for a little bit...

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Post #35 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:36 pm 
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@Kirby:
It's easily the best analysis I've read so far. Very well done!

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Post #36 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:41 pm 
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ChradH wrote:
@Kirby:
It's easily the best analysis I've read so far. Very well done!

Thank you, ChradH. I will try to come up with a cool followup...

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Post #37 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:44 pm 
Gosei
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Question for Magicwand:
Why the high approach for :w24:?

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Post #38 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:34 pm 
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fwiffo wrote:
Question for Magicwand:
Why the high approach for :w24:?


i have to counter his influence. you will see later that his middle will be nullifiedy by my invasion. i guarantee it.

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Post #39 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:14 pm 
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people want me to put more comment for the viewers... i have some free time now.
my assessment about below picture. if i had a choice i will take white everytime.
one skills kyu player must learn is to assess the value of the influence.
although his middle looks good to a beginner's eye i see toomany weaknesses.
main reason why i dont consider that moyo to be threatening is that i dont see any one move that will solidify into points. it is too wide. and black is one step behind white. he must answer my move 24 and i can build my own moyo and points to compliment his. i think many (not all) professionals will agree that white is in better situation because white already has solid points. i might be wrong but probably right.
there is reason why i win most of my game as 3d in kgs. it is because i play to win.
not play to be fancy.
edit: yea.. corner sure is ugly :) but it fits my style.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Move 24 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #40 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Move 25 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that Magicwand played a very good move here, and I've had to think about potential responses quite a bit.

To begin with, I have been thinking of the whole board position. In general, Magicwand has a lot more solid territory than I do. I do think that my influence is valuable, but it hasn't materialized into territory, yet. I think that this is a very delicate situation, and I have to do my best not to ruin the influence that I have gained from earlier in the game.

So I think that my most obvious response is to defend along the right side. I might expect a sequence like the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . 4 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The problem with this is that I think that it is too easy on white. White gets to play an easy joseki, and brings the game closer to an end... Which means that it will be a bit harder to use the influence that I've developed... I really have to figure out how to use this influence.

Also, in the sequence above, there still seems like there's some aji left for white to exploit, such as weaknesses/openings at a and b... I feel OK about making some points in this sequence, but I'm not sure if I'm using my influence well if I play this way.

So since I was so focused on influence, the next thing I thought of was a kind of weird sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My idea here is to try to help my influence on the bottom by capping his approach... The problem is, I don't know if the two stones, :b1: and :b3:, in the diagram above are really doing that much for me. They might help my influence a bit, but it doesn't seem like an active way of playing. I think my approach is too simplistic and obvious to be effective.

So then I thought about ignoring his approach, and making an approach of my own, but I thought that white could use his approach move effectively by pincering me with one of the marked points below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . x x x . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . x x x . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't really like this because he can counter my influence on the bottom pretty well...

So finally, I decided upon the move that I did. I think that it complements my influence on the bottom alright, it splits white up a bit so that he doesn't have an easy time making territory on the top, and it gives me a chance to possibly attack his approach stone in the future... I'll do my best! :mad:

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