Teamovitch #1

Jordus · **#41**

suggestion for Move 5

Joaz Banbeck · **#42**

For observers and teammates:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc a amd b are classic joseki $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . a , . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 b . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------|[/go]

This is joseki? Ok, maybe it is if black really wants to emphasize the lower side while giving up the corner. But we don't have enough on the lower side to make it worth more than the corner. If we had several more stones there, then 3 works like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 3 . O . . | $$ B B . . . . , . . . | $$ . ? ? ? ? 1 . 2 . . | $$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . | $$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . | $$ --------------------|[/go]

When we don't have the lower side, let's look at the obvious continuation. It's a free corner; white would be a fool not to take it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------|[/go]

Black can make the obvious 2-space stabilizing move, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . , . ? ? | $$ . . 3 . . 1 . 2 ? ? | $$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? | $$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? | $$ --------------------|[/go]

...in which case he gets less terrirory than white...

and white has an easy attack:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . , . . . | $$ 4 . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------|[/go]

I agree with Fwiffo: I like the previous suggestion better.

fwiffo · **#43**

For teammates and observers.

Joaz Banbeck · **#44**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For observers and teammates:

@teammmates: now that all three of you have made your suggestions, you can read my comments here: viewtopic.php?p=37639#p37639

Jordus wrote:

suggestion for Move 5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c b 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo's move seems like a done deal...

No, it wasn't. Two people liked it, but I was hoping for 'b' in the above diagram. It is the move most able to directly contest the 5-4.

As mentioned in the post referenced above, I think that the two left corners are the most important by a tiny margin. I was hoping that there would be nominations for mainstream kaklari/shimari in both of them. Then I would start reading to see which had the best continuation.

But the 5-3 kakari under a 5-4 is again a move that emphasises the side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . B . . B $$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black gives white an easy corner, which according to proverb, is worth more than a side. It only works if black has a presence on the upper side such as the marked stones above to make the side worth more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In summary: by strange coincidence, two of the suggestions are for obscure josekis ( or psuedosekis ) which require a stone or two on the neighboring side. Sadly, in both instances, we don't have those stones in place, and either way we would get an inferior result if our opponents simply played the obvious and natural continuation.

So that leaves only the other suggestion at C4. I'm not sure that it is the best move - I personally would have played D17 myself - but it is the only suggestion that does not have theoretical shortcomings.

EDIT: Oh dear, what to do? Fwiffo says that his was a mis-click. Uhhh...can you white players hold off until I look at it?

For observers and teammates:

tj86430 · **#45**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Uhhh...can you white players hold off until I look at it?

Fine by me.

BTW, I just noticed that when I quote your message I can also see the hidden part. I didn't read it though, I just quickly deleted it from the quote.

topazg · **#46**

For observers and teammates:

Jordus · **#47**

Black Internal chat:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . 1 . . a . . . . $$ | . . . , . . c b . . . . $$ | . . . O e . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

With this suggestion I was working under the assumption of white playing at 2 (From Jim Davies Attack and Defense, "The best way to attack is to not attach to a stone") then black follows up with a,b,or c...

*edit* I suppose black could play at e also... but it just doesn't appeal to me without an extension stone first

I did consider white attaching...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 2 1 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . y . . . . . $$ | . . . O . x . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I figured this sequence here would make for an interesting fight.. if white responds to 3 at a, then black plays at b.. if white responds at b, then black makes an interesting ko at a...

*Edit* I suppose :b3:

could be played at x or y..... but white still gets the corner...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 2 1 . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 6 5 8 . . . . . . . $$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But now that I read it out after a short nap, the ko doesn't look so good...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 2 1 . . a b . . . $$ | . . 6 5 7 . . c . . . . $$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This sequence white probably take the corner loke so, and play plays an extension to the side at a,b,or c..

Looking at this sequence in the full diagram...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . f , . . . . . , . . . . g , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would much prefer having a stone at abcd or e... so white can not extend... you also have the danger of white f.... However even with the danger of that, white still has their unprotected corner at around g that black can play to counter those...

*EDIT* I restructured the post..

Chew Terr · **#48**

topazg wrote:

For observers and teammates:

Redundant · **#49**

Chew Terr wrote:

topazg wrote:

For observers and teammates:

topazg · **#50**

For teammates:

Chew Terr · **#51**

Redundant wrote:

Chew Terr wrote:

topazg wrote:

For observers and teammates:

Joaz Banbeck · **#52**

Black Internal chat:

Joaz Banbeck · **#53**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, it is for real this time.

Chew Terr · **#54**

Redundant · **#55**

tj86430 · **#56**

White team:

topazg · **#57**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's let Black get thinking about their next move. I'm picking this one, and my reasoning will all follow when I get a spare 30 minutes

topazg · **#58**

To Chew:

To Red:

I'm really happy you've moved the point one lower than Chew. C9 to me is absolutely perfect, for a number of reasons:

1) we still have the downwards two space jump, which totally wrecks the shimari's hopes, so Black can't easily pincer. Also, Black's pincering :b7:

doesn't have the opportunity of a two space jump upwards. As a result, if Black pincered here, he can't even hope to approach in the top left without biting off more than he can chew everywhere

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2) If Black approaches from below, it's even less efficient than if it was approaching C10, and we can get a two point jump that creates fabulous shape with the corner. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 4 . . 0 . d . . e . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . 9 . . . , . . . b . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . f , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . f . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this sequence, for example, we can now take the a->b->c sequence, and we have d an e aji to play with at the top, and perfect enclosure type formations with one of the f points in the lower right. Harmonious is an understatement. C9 just screams efficiency to me, and it's not overstretching. It's exactly where I wanted to play.

To TJ:

All three of you rock, Black should be quaking in their collective boots already

gaius · **#59**

Hmmm. I would love to put some burning critique in a hidden tag now. Instead:

Joaz Banbeck · **#60**

To black players:

To all: I'm at a convention for the rest of the week; I probably won't be replying until Saturday afternoon.

To black players:

Teamovitch #1

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