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Black internal discussion:
My first thought is that now is the time to take the upper left. The extension is low, which means the formation they end up with on the side will be easy to reduce and they'll be somewhat overconcentrated. But I don't have a specific move to suggest yet, as I have an opportunity to take my time to consider the possibilities.
It gives us the extension we want to our marked White stone, superb outside influence, destroys Black's hopes of powerful extensions from the lower left shimari, and makes the influential nature of the top right 4-4 rather hard to utilise. 6/10
5-3 approach
Pretty rare, and I think good for White. Slightly better for White than the last one.
I do wonder about at "a" instead. The shimari is probably rather good for White here, and may still be of more value than the upper right approach. Also, the left may be sufficiently thin that White should take "b" instead as well, but I don't want too many stones on just one side of the board just yet. As "a" is sente because of the lower edge, perhaps exchanging that for the bottom then taking "b" is good, preventing a Black double wing and securing the left in one stroke. It's not like we can't decide how to deal with the top right later. The thing I like about the upper right approach and pull back is it makes it hard for Black to approach the lower right:
White can destroy the top area and develop the right in one fell swoop, and Black is kept low everywhere. Black now has little development potential, and the game feels really good to me. 6/10
I feel that Black's shimari was slightly slow, but time will tell as we develop from where we currently are. Certainly, even in all of these variations, White and Black feel close to even for me.
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For observers, not players:
fwiffo wrote:
My first thought is that now is the time to take the upper left. The extension is low, which means the formation they end up with on the side will be easy to reduce and they'll be somewhat overconcentrated. But I don't have a specific move to suggest yet, as I have an opportunity to take my time to consider the possibilities.
I really like the direction that Fwiffo's reasoning is going. I suspect that D17 or C17 is our best move. And making them overconcentrated is one of the keys to making it work.
Now if one of the other soldiers suggests a splitting attack, I'll be a happy captain.
If I have time to read, I'd like to invade the top left, and do it in such a manner that the resulting joseki is incompatible with white's latest play at C9.
If I were playing a casual game, I'd split without looking twice, hoping for this:
As the position stands now, it seems like the two biggest areas to play are around a and b, both of white's unenclosed corners. The important things to think about are which of these are more important to us and which are more important to white. White's latest is mostly a spoiling move; it's only purpose seems to be to prevent our enclose from building nicely. It does indeed build off the 5-4 stone, but this is like building a second story before building a foundation, since a is needed to get some meaning out of the area. Even so, white's latest is in the wrong direction from the enclosure, so it's not so big of a deal.
If white gets a we can get b, and if they get c we can get d. Given a choice between these exchanges, i think the cd one is better for us, since it gives us a wider extension with the possibility of a double wing at e if white lets us. If white plays a however I would be less thrilled to play b, since like white's latest it is mostly a spoiling move that doesn't give us much room for development. I think this fact is another argument for playing a right now. Another is that, as I will show, a does more to help us build than b does.
If we are going to jump into the upper right, i think this is definitely the spot. Anything else is too slack for a diagonal fuseki. White's two main choices are to take profit with a or influence with b. If white takes b we will get shut in with a few points while white gets some influence:
I dont really know the joseki for this, but regardless it leads to a position that, while fine for us, could be better, as our new group clearly will have no room for growth, and white's thickness will stunt the position of our 44 stone. If white takes the other option:
Again this is playable for us, but I feel like it lets white make his last move too efficient, as it is well placed for this joseki. As a side note, Fwiffo's comments that we can make white both over concentrated and easy to reduce seem contradictory, since a position that is over-concentrated seems to be by definition in fact so hard to reduce that it is not an efficient use of stones. For these reasons I'm not thrilled with the upper left corner, but suggest the lower right instead.
This is my suggestion. White has three main options at a b and c. Pressing us down at a makes absolutely no sense in this situation since white has no hope of building a framework and would just be giving us free points:
This leaves us sente to take big moves like a b and c. We could get lucky, but it might be safe to assume that white probably will not choose this path. So what about the other options?
If white takes the taisha with a then it is impossible to predict what will happen, but no matter what variation is chosen I'm confident we will get a good result, since we control both adjacent corners. If white pincers:
We might get some variation like this, in which we are capable of a severe attack by leaning on the side stones and then counter pincering the bottom one. There are many other ways for us to react to the pincer as well.
Regardless of how white responds to our kakari, we will almost definitely get both a good result AND sente to either approach the top left or take another big move. For these reasons my suggestion is:
Other stuff to team black that has nothing to do with this move"
For future reference, I think it will be for the best if we all at first try to think of our own moves before looking at what our teammates suggested. This way we will not be influenced by each other at first when making our initial choice. After we have thought of what we want to play and why, then it might be a good idea to compare that to what has already been suggested.
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Other stuff to team black that has nothing to do with this move:
Jedo wrote:
... [hide]For future reference, I think it will be for the best if we all at first try to think of our own moves before looking at what our teammates suggested. This way we will not be influenced by each other at first when making our initial choice. After we have thought of what we want to play and why, then it might be a good idea to compare that to what has already been suggested.
I think that is a great idea.
Another idea, sort of meta-strategy, for which we probably won't have an opportunity until mid-game: there may be some advantage in making moves that have one and only one good reply, especially if the opponents have to read a bit to find them.
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black people
Choosing a move with only one good reply may be dangerous, since I bet Redundant will be able to read enough to see it, especially by just churning through some variations on an sgf. And even if he gets it wrong one of the other two might always get it... although I guess choosing moves with as few good replys as possible can't be a bad thing
And about joseki, i think we can finish what we start
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
I like A because it gives the board a balanced feel... It does give white the chance to shimari at z, but Black has sente and the board is still balanced... Also white is weak in the corner at x...
Can be played at current position or (a). (c) may also work to take the corner but I think it gives white too big a wall to use... The purpose of this move in its current position is to prevent whites shimari.... while giving black influence to the corner and sides, making white choose which to play for...
Tengen... This allows white to shimari, black responds by balancing the board with 3... Now the board is balanced and black controls tengen... Downside is white now has sente... However playing tengen might throw the opponent off a little... Another advantage?
There are a couple approaches to this 5-4 stone, but I think this is the best one here. I don't know 5-4 or 5-3 joseki that well, but there are a few simple lines that I'm aware of. Either they end up with white with a wall facing the wrong way (i.e. not at his side extension), or they give up a healthy sized corner to black with access to the outside.
White can cut on the inside to take the outside stone in a ladder, but becomes a meaningless stone. He can take the corner, but we get a nice position on the outside that works with our upper right, and again, the marked stone is rendered redundant.
There are several variations after this that I don't know exactly, but I recall them all being generally intuitive. In all the variations, white gets influence facing the wrong way, making the extension mostly useless.
..Yilun Yang wrote a book called "Fundamental principles of Go", in which he has a chapter on ranking moves in the early game. He has several classes of moves starting with the most important.
The first class is playing in an empty corner. The second class is A) playing the second move - either a kakari or a shimari - in a corner that already has a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 stone. B) playing on the side in if both corners face that way There is a third class and a fourth class, and they have several subdivisions. ...
So far, all of the moves made have followed those principles. The first four moves took the first four corners, thus exhausting all of the first class moves. Move number five was a shimari, a second class move. Move six was a play on a side between two corners which both faced that side ( although it feels just a bit improper to me, because the extension might be good if it were from a friendly corner that had been finished - but this one is not. )
Jedo wrote:
...As the position stands now, it seems like the two biggest areas to play are around a and b, both of white's unenclosed corners...
This seems to be in line with Yang.
fwiffo wrote:
...My first thought is that now is the time to take the upper left. The extension is low, which means the formation they end up with on the side will be easy to reduce and they'll be somewhat overconcentrated. But I don't have a specific move to suggest yet, as I have an opportunity to take my time to consider the possibilities...
I really like this idea of exploiting white's possibly misplaced sixth move. Unfortunately, I don't think that it can be done by invading. Jedo demonstrates ( viewtopic.php?p=37866#p37866 ) several lines that look good for white if we try to do it at the 3-4 point. The following diagram looks too good for white if we invade at the 3-3
The suggestion of R10 ( a third class move in Yang's hierarchy, BTW ) is just a teeny bit slack. It is not a bad move, but it does not go for the most important areas: the two incomplete corners. One corner is tactically problematic, but the other isn't.
That bring us to the last nominee: Q3. It does go for one of the biggest spots, and it seems to not bring us any problems while doing so. The nominator suggests that we may come out of it with sente.
For observers:
I still want to invade at or near C12. I'm not disappointed to take this detour though, for it may generate a ladder breaker for us to finish a ladder starting around C12 and going southeast. I just hope that Jedo is right about maintaining sente
For no better reason than that I've been enjoying (and mostly succeeding) with taisha lately, I suggest O4. Nothing they have is close enough to make it unworkable, so let's rock and roll.
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Request for triggers from teammates:
When we get into situations in which there are only a few moves that are standard joseki, it might make the game go faster if soldiers made trigger suggestions, like "if white plays P4, I suggest XX". ( These, of course, should be hidden. )
BTW,I did not hide this post because I think that the white team might want to do it too.
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Welcome to Graham's Go Grumbles (Hey, maybe that's a better intro jingle for my videos, especially with the last audio quality?)
This one's an essay or three, as I wanted to give full insights into exactly how I would assess a real, complicated, and interesting board position in a game. This, to me, is a good moment for Malkoviching - if any observers / team members have questions, please send them all my way.
For the team:
Right, time to crack the whip. Firstly, I'm not going to say your choices suck. They don't, but while I wait for TJ's suggestion there are things we are going to have to do in a game like this, or we are going to lose. The board is a big place. There's 361 points to start with, and 354 left still. Expecting to play locally (which I have to assume is all you did based on the thoughts you gave) is not going to be good enough when the whole board is so important. The last move thoughts were great, but perhaps that was because of how obvious the shimari made it, and thinking outside the box is vital. The fuseki is a razors edge dance where you don't listen to your opponent, because the song you are following in your own head is better. Sometimes that adapts to the opponent's move, but it doesn't respond to the opponent's move - there lies the path to passive disaster.
For example, Red, there are two corners Black wants to approach. Sure, we could take your joseki, but it's gote, which means not only does Black get to approach one of our corners, but also the other one. Do we really want that? Have we considered the possibility of which corner is the biggest to play our next move in?
Chew, you picked taisha, and you like taisha, and that's all and well. What about the end result? Does that scupper our opponent's development plans? Does the central influence balance swing our way or Black's? Are there thoughts of sente/gote in how we jump into the taisha before that particular one way road sparks fly?
If we are approached, always consider at least one local and one tenuki move to compare. If our opponent has picked a big move, always consider at least one move designed to attack / punish and another to develop / take a bit point. Not meaning to be scathing at all (ok, maybe just a very slight chastisement ), I'm very pleased to have you all on the team, but we must keep our game and thoughts at a very high level
My thoughts in this move will be in the observers bit for the end of the game, but when I pick I will discuss the ones you suggested.
For observers - thoughts and ideas:
Grrrr... this is slack of White. White has only expended one stone down here, and even in the corner it can be treated lightly. We need to have a much better attempt at assessing the whole board - it's more important now than it will be for the rest of the game. Fundamental Principles (Yang), Opening Theory made Easy (Hideo) and Direction of Play (Kajiwara) are all outstanding books to read to grasp the basics of these concepts, probably in the order Hideo -> Yang -> Kajiwara, and reading+sequence experience put the meat on the theory for how variations can play out. However, to simply respond without attempting to apply these concepts is not good enough in a Malkovich game. For one thing, I want our moves to serve multiple purposes - was nice because it both prevented Black's dreams and genuinely bolstered the power of the upper left corner.
One comment I received when discussing a game position with Mr Yang has always stuck in my mind - when asked what move would be ideal in a given fuseki position, I said "How about here, it does a and b, that looks good enough for Black?" and he instantly responded "There is no 'good enough', it's the right move or it isn't, look again". Such I suspect is the professional way of thinking, and we all need to aspire to such standards with our moves if we hope to improve I think.
The shimari in the lower left makes the lower edge hard for Black to develop. We have to be slightly careful, because in the lower right if he can pull back with a knight's move from his approach, Black gains the ability to make a bit of a framework down there, but even if so C9 is still perfectly placed to restrict the two dimensional development of it Black can get. Already, the potential of good double wings has mostly gone, and one of the reasons I like is because it challenges the efficiency a bit of . On hindsight, isn't slow, but it is one track minded. I think if we can make the most of our expansive ideas we can get a slightly better result (at least, I hope so). Important, and potentially big, but not urgent in the literal sense nor big enough to be urgent just yet either.
b) The lower right corner
The area of the moment! As Black has now approached it, there's a psychological feeling of high temperature here, but I think it appears deceptively high. Obviously most local moves here right now are huge, but there's also a big question mark over the usefulness and efficiency of the result. We have so many flexible options down there right now I'd rather resolve the upper right a bit more before deciding which one we want. I also feel that Black can't get as much from the next two moves in this corner as White can from two moves in the far corner, so I'd throw the gauntlet down a bit for which one's bigger. Urgent, big, but hard to lose out badly if we don't play there as we have so many good options. Kind of like two massively sente miai points against a group - there's no rush or point in jumping at one when the other one's always still going to be there.
c) The right edge
Both the upper right star and the lower right 5-3 want dibs on the right. And Black's approach increases the stakes somewhat. This is the primary reason I'd choose to approach the top right instead of respond directly, as we hope to have the exact sort of development we want if we can get a response. Of course, Black may well pincer (see last hide box) and that gets interesting - still, that's the fuseki dance for you.
d) The upper right corner
Not so urgent. 4-4 stones are like that. Flexible, lots of things can happen, and everyone has lots of options. We may want to approach it, but only regarding the aim of developing the right hand side.
e) The top edge
A really really interesting area of the board to me. Normally, the 5-4 in the top left is aiming to develop the left side, not the top, and the 4-4 in the top right wants to develop the top, so it would be an area that only one player has good potential in - important therefore, but not urgent. However, the flavour of the top has changed considerable after . Before, if White takes a corner enclosure, Black takes the top, and if White takes the top, Black approaches the top left, and both are broadly speaking pretty close to each other with regards to the result. However, now, Black approaching the top left already gives White a useful left hand side position because is both in place, and hard to attack. As a result, getting a stone on the top prevents Black's development there (and gives White two good approaches in the top right), and when Black approaches the top left White gets a good result on both sides. As a result, K16 (the top star point) looks like a valuable, multi-directional, multi-purpose rule. This feels both big, and it creates an urgent situation that Black has no good way of handling, but can't ignore (and let White enclose the top left as well) either.
f) The top left
It's big, but Black playing here is ok for White, and White playing here gives Black the freedom of taking the top side which a) hinders White and b) helps Black's development. As a result, it feels like it is hard to find a move here that is as big as the top edge, although completing the enclosure definitely feels like a big and solid move.
g) The left hand side
We already have two stones there, and another would be both unnecessary and over concentrated. Not big, not urgent.
Observers - what I want right now
Frankly, I'm not entirely sure, but tenuki seems the best option as we don't quite know what we want from this corner yet. One of the great joys of the 5-3 opening point is that it is really flexible. That is not limited to the options available at handling Black approaches, but including the ability to not respond at all. It's surprisingly hard for Black to quickly eliminate the aji of the 5-3 stone, which means White has a lot of scope to assess the rest of the board. For example:
The "a" and "b" (follow up) points still have plenty of aji, and this despite all the moves Black has played down there. In the meantime, White is making some serious points.
This is actually probably my favourite move (at the top), making it easier and easier for White to profit from Black approaching the top left. The invasion on the left side between the White stones is already frankly overplay, but after this it is so easy for White to profit from.
I'm unhappy with Red's press because I think Black gets to have his cake and eat it:
I don't want Black to get so easily. This already feels like Black's getting more bang for his buck than White, as doesn't feel big enough to compensate for Black's bottom potential, territory, and the fact he kept sente. Chew's taisha is a big disruption joseki really:
"a" is a small bit of White points. "b" is Black low points. "c" is Black low points. "d" is outside White influence. I don't know, the corner's not that huge or that big a bonus right here and now, and I don't fancy giving black settled and stable territory on both edges. It's playable, and I prefer it slightly to Red's choice, but neither solution feels "great" to me.
My choices
I'd prefer any of the points marked below given a choice.
"a" - This is just big, but I'm not happy about the fact Black gets to play at the top, working for his star point stone and against our enclosure. That feels too perfect for him to me somehow.
"b" - Because of the reasoning for "a", and because we have a left side presence, I don't believe Black can easily respond well to us taking this top point. The logical thing to do is invade the top left before we enclose, but obviously the outside thickness is awesome for us. Bring it on I say! This is my favourite option.
"c" - If Black responds to this approach, we can then press happily:
Now we at least have a nice overall development, with good potential to make that right side bigger. It helps us choose a lower right follow up, and has good flexibility and potential in the upper right. However, if Black pincers in the lower right at instead, we could end up with the following:
Buh? My head hurts. Still, looks kinda fun too Black also the ability to pincer in the top right, and I can't quite read out how well the board will look after we open up cans of crazy on each other. As a result ...
"d" - More directly setting up the press, and leaving open the immediate top right approach depending on Black's next move. However, this is very gote and I'm less keen on this one, I'd rather take the pincer risks. So, in preference, my move choices out of these 4 are "b", "c", "a" and "d". I added "e" because if I am at least to talk about a local follow up, I may as well point out the one I would have chosen myself
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For teammates and observers:
It is getting cold in here. The temperature is going to drop rapidly in the next handful of moves. It is very profitable for us to get the last of the big moves. ( See tedomari at SL ) There are four big areas left, as shown below: the remaining corner, and the three unclaimed sides. We can reasonably expect to split the at two each. Iit is quite possible that a joseki will swirl out of a corner and expand so far long the side that the side is no longer a big move. In that case, we want to get two of the last three big moves. Keeping sente will be very important.
If we do split the last four moves in a relatively straightforward manner, we can expect a fighting game. It is a diagonal fuseki, so the possibility of large frameworks is decreased. Territories will be made in small chunks, and contested with small invasions and reductions. in such a game, it is easy to get over-focussed on one area and ignore the fact that the local temperature is dropping - and thus miss bigger moves elsewhere. Tenuki will be very important.
In summary: 1) THINK BIG POINTS. 2) As the big points are being taken, THINK SENTE. 3) As soon as the big points are gone, THINK TENUKI.
BTW, I'm really pleased with the suggestions. In all but one of the moves that we have made, the move that I thought was best was suggested. And even that one move I'm not sure is better.
Even without our captains message I would have considered tenuki. The move I chose was my first instinct. I did also consider a, b and c. If opponent chooses the conservative response I think we are fine:
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fwiffo
at "a" instead. The shimari is probably rather good for White here, and may still be of more value than the upper right approach. Also, the left may be sufficiently thin that White should take "b" instead as well, but I don't want too many stones on just one side of the board just yet. As "a" is sente because of the lower edge, perhaps exchanging that for the bottom then taking "b" is good, preventing a Black double wing and securing the left in one stroke. It's not like we can't decide how to deal with the top right later. The thing I like about the upper right approach and pull back is it makes it hard for Black to approach the lower right:
:
becomes a meaningless stone. He can take the corner, but we get a nice position on the outside that works with our upper right, and again, the marked stone is rendered redundant.
), I'm very pleased to have you all on the team, but we must keep our game and thoughts at a very high level 
was nice because it both prevented Black's dreams and genuinely bolstered the power of the upper left corner.
. On hindsight, 
so easily. This already feels like Black's getting more bang for his buck than White, as 
doesn't feel big enough to compensate for Black's bottom potential, territory, and the fact he kept sente. Chew's taisha is a big disruption joseki really:
instead, we could end up with the following: