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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #501 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:34 am 
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It was an interesting game.

My thinking at various points: I guessed Joaz was white (this is before he revealed stuff) and people seemed to be voting for reasons not related to which side people were on, so suggesting Kirby seemed the best shot as he'd made some comment about being uninterested in continuing. My two other reasons in that post in which I vote for Kirby were mostly filler (I couldn't tell which team he was on, really). Then when nobody really changed their vote, it seemed best to go with that as Joaz was leaving anyways (unfortunate that Fwiffo changed his vote too!).

Next, I decided danielthesmith was on team black based on one or two of his moves, and perhaps this could be used as Joaz had publicly guessed he was on team white. So I voted for him. Maybe I should've dealt with that differently, but in the end it turned out we voted out someone on team black anyways.

I didn't know it, however, and after that, I was sure we'd already voted off two players from the white team (as perhaps did everyone else?), and black seemed to become more confident and gained the upper hand in the game, I think. Finally, Fwiffo and (by this time it was definitely all over) Kirby went due to out-of-game reasons.

Thanks for running this, Phelan. I think there's a good deal more merit in it than I did originally (though I still like the variants I suggested in the other thread a while ago).

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #502 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:42 am 
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Harleqin wrote:
Who were the remaining players in the end?

From the first post:
Chew Terr 7k
topazg 1D
prokofiev 5k
daniel_the_smith 1k
Marcus 4k
Jordus 10k


By the way, when I talk about changing the way teams are balanced, I would always include some randomness, or some other unknown factor to keep people guessing.

Chew Terr, your voting variant would only reduce time during vote offs, and most time is spent during move votes. Maybe reducing the voting requirement closer to 50% would help, but it would advantage the bigger team.

We can try your variant next, prokofiev. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #503 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Great game everyone, I had fun metagaming and guessing the metagamers. By the time the game had finished, mountainGo was the only person I hadn't worked out was on our team, and I'd kept our team informed of who was on who. I would gladly do another one of these on a bigger board :)

Fun game!

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #504 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:51 pm 
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It's rather hard to hide your allegiances when you're on so small a board, I think.

I know I kept trying to throw curveballs about what team I was on, but I don't think I succeeded very well. I laughed when Joaz indicated that he wasn't sure of what team I was on. I'm a horrible poker player, so to speak.

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #505 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:09 pm 
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topazg wrote:
and I'd kept our team informed of who was on who


Using pm's doesn't seem fair! I guess Phelan didn't explicitly forbid them, though. (Or is that not what you meant?)

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #506 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:18 pm 
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I think that the votes (both for moves and shooting someone) should be made privately and then revealed simultaneously. If there is no single most voted move then, the vote is simply repeated.

Reason: a late voter in the current system has to overcome peer pressure if he wants to vote differently.

Another modification would be to anonymize the players, so that there is no strength information initially.

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #507 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:27 pm 
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prokofiev wrote:
topazg wrote:
and I'd kept our team informed of who was on who


Using pm's doesn't seem fair! I guess Phelan didn't explicitly forbid them, though. (Or is that not what you meant?)


Yeah, that's what I meant. I figure the rules are the rules, and anything outside them goes in Mafia Go :)

That said, doing it can really backfire. If I pm'ed Daniel and he was on the other team, I could guarantee being voted off pretty much.

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #508 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:29 pm 
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topazg wrote:
That said, doing it can really backfire. If I pm'ed Daniel and he was on the other team, I could guarantee being voted off pretty much.


Or being played and tricked into voting off your ACTUAL teammates.

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #509 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:10 pm 
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topazg wrote:
prokofiev wrote:
topazg wrote:
and I'd kept our team informed of who was on who


Using pm's doesn't seem fair! I guess Phelan didn't explicitly forbid them, though. (Or is that not what you meant?)


Yeah, that's what I meant. I figure the rules are the rules, and anything outside them goes in Mafia Go :)

That said, doing it can really backfire. If I pm'ed Daniel and he was on the other team, I could guarantee being voted off pretty much.


Fair enough :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #510 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:40 am 
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I'm rather disappointed in this one. And, no, not because I got voted off early. ( That's a chance you take when you join up. It is like walking onto a baseball field - if you are not willing to take a bouncer in the face, you shouldn't walk on. )

The rules of the game were substantially different than a normal game of go, and the majority of you never really explored this. You treated it almost like a normal game. You voted off guys because they were willing to go, not because you thought that it would help you win the game. Nobody but me explored the strategies of using voting to win the game.

My dissapointment was particularly acute near the end when it was obvious that white was doomed. At that point the only rational attempt by white players to win the game was to start voting for bad black moves. But nobody did. It was like watching a 29K play a ladder all the way across the board, one doomed move after another, with no attempt to understand what is going on or to change it.
You remaining white players did not know if you were the majority or not. But you knew that you could not possibly win on the board with normal moves. Your only chance to win was to vote for a bad black move and hope that you had enough votes. And you didn't even try.

What is the point in playing a game like this if you are not going to try to win with all the tools that you have? Would you play chess but refuse to move your queen more than one space? Would you play basketball but never try a 3-pointer? Those used to be the rules: the queen moved one space, and a bucket was two points. But when new possibilities were added, people used them.

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #511 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:22 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I'm rather disappointed in this one. And, no, not because I got voted off early. ( That's a chance you take when you join up. It is like walking onto a baseball field - if you are not willing to take a bouncer in the face, you shouldn't walk on. )

The rules of the game were substantially different than a normal game of go, and the majority of you never really explored this. You treated it almost like a normal game. You voted off guys because they were willing to go, not because you thought that it would help you win the game. Nobody but me explored the strategies of using voting to win the game.


Not correct, that's just what you read. I voted off those willing to go with that reason because they were on team White. Every vote made was political, and the last two votes were done in collusion with the rest of my "family". To begin with my moves were "even" moves, and as it went on I voted for progressively larger bad moves for White, and made sure that the team were all on the same page, so to speak. I believe Black won the mafia war, not the Go game, and it led to winning on the board also.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
My dissapointment was particularly acute near the end when it was obvious that white was doomed. At that point the only rational attempt by white players to win the game was to start voting for bad black moves. But nobody did. It was like watching a 29K play a ladder all the way across the board, one doomed move after another, with no attempt to understand what is going on or to change it.
You remaining white players did not know if you were the majority or not. But you knew that you could not possibly win on the board with normal moves. Your only chance to win was to vote for a bad black move and hope that you had enough votes. And you didn't even try.


I can't comment on White, but this wasn't the case for Black.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
What is the point in playing a game like this if you are not going to try to win with all the tools that you have? Would you play chess but refuse to move your queen more than one space? Would you play basketball but never try a 3-pointer? Those used to be the rules: the queen moved one space, and a bucket was two points. But when new possibilities were added, people used them.


As did Black here ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #512 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:27 am 
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In response to Joaz, as apparently I (and perhaps Jordus) are the 29 Kyus here (two of our teammates had stopped playing, and you were the first one out):

I make no claims to having played a great game, but your vision of strategy appears to be focused only on big moves. There's something to be said for trying big moves, as you did, but the frequent outcome in such a game will be that you just lose. I tried multiple more subtle moves. I don't claim they were executed in the best manner, but moves they were nonetheless.

As the game went on (and two white team members were effectively gone before they were voted out) I did try good moves for white and bad moves for black, but it was clear that black players were doing the reverse and were being successful at it (ie their moves were the chosen ones). A big "I'm most definitely on team white" declaration thus made little sense. Essentially my strategy after this all became clear multiple times turned into a waiting game hoping that maybe black would mess up and misguess who was who in the late endgame (it appears unlikely, and nobody had the patience for such; I was presumably outed due to mistakes earlier, but thought perhaps another white player still had a chance and I wouldn't have wanted any more white outings).

Typing this on a phone, so I'll stop here and not proofread!

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #513 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:56 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
It was like watching a 29K play a ladder all the way across the board, one doomed move after another, with no attempt to understand what is going on or to change it.


I had a 2d opponent do this last night.

He still won the game. :o

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #514 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:49 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
It was like watching a 29K play a ladder all the way across the board, one doomed move after another, with no attempt to understand what is going on or to change it.


I had a 2d opponent do this last night.

He still won the game. :o


Do you have a game record? I want to see that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #515 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:46 am 
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Marcus wrote:
Do you have a game record? I want to see that. :)


It was one of 8 or 9 in person games we played (he was playing really fast and I got sucked in), so not much chance of me remembering it. I accidentally lost a group on the other side of the board. I finally figured out how to beat him the last game we played-- I realized that at that speed, his reading was way better than mine, so I made all my groups extra safe and he fell apart doing unreasonable stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Mafia Go #1: Finished!
Post #516 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:29 pm 
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im beyond interested in the next game im holding my breath until all my braincells die

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