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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #61 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:19 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:54 W:41
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | 3 W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . 2 1 . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m . . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W . . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

If you accept.

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We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #62 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:07 am 
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Rank: OGS 1d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:55 W:41
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m X . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W . . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Seeing if white will connect - white probably won't, so I will then take the minus point and get about 10 points swing in the corner. I think that's better than me connecting and white playing at this point instead. Now there is also three spots worth about 4-6 points (the top plus point is largest), but unfortunately I don't think I'll have time to play first.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #63 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:27 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:55 W:42
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W O . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #64 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:41 am 
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Rank: OGS 1d
KGS: illluck
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OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:55 W:42
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | X B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W W . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
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Offline schultz
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #65 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:07 am 
Lives in gote
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This game has been fun to watch, and I'm looking forward to the conclusion.

But, dang, you guys are trying to make my eyes bleed... :shock: So many red circles... ;)

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This post by schultz was liked by: hyperpape
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #66 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:23 am 
Gosei
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:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:56 W:49
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | X B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | 2 B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | 1 W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W W . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

If he connects his stone I believe connecting mine back to my group is bigger than taking the final +5 point on the board.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . 2 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B 1 B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | X B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | B B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | W W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W W . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #67 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:22 pm 
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KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Glad that you are enjoying it :)

Sorry for the red circles, too late to change the previous diagrams now, but perhaps we can flip the use of red circles for current moves?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:57 W:49
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O m O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . B X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #68 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1757
Liked others: 372
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Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:56 W:45
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O W O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #69 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:06 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1212
Liked others: 736
Was liked: 238
Rank: OGS 1d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:57 W:45
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X B X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #70 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:26 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1757
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Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:57 W:46
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . W O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #71 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:54 am 
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Posts: 1212
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Was liked: 238
Rank: OGS 1d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:64 W:47
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . 2 W O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O 3 |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #72 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:48 pm 
Gosei
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I resign.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:64 W:47
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O X |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

At any point you can play a move like :b1:, and at the end of the game it will either be left on the board or (since Batoo uses area-like scoring) I'll have to capture it, resulting in -5 points. That leaves me too far behind to win the game.

Thanks for the game illuck, it was a lot of fun :).

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #73 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:54 am 
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Rank: OGS 1d
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OGS: illluck
Thanks for the game, but are you sure that's how it works? That seems rather strange to me...
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #74 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:11 pm 
Gosei
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I'm pretty sure: the game uses area scoring, and from looking at one of the other threads it said that the minus points do not get counted as actual territory. Araban apparently wrote a thorough review of the rules at GoDiscussions, but that's down. What's worse, Godiscussions robots.txt disallows traversal of the threads on it's forum, so the Internet Archive doesn't have a backup.

I didn't think about this situation at the beginning of the game, but it's the interpretation that would make the most sense to me.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #75 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:02 pm 
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OGS: illluck
I'm still not convinced that's how it works. I'm pretty sure you won the game XD
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #76 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:16 pm 
Tengen

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Well, illuck definitely won, because Dusk Eagle resigned. Now we're just arguing over who wins the review.

Interesting game, guys.

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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Post #77 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Thanks to you both, this was an enjoyable game to watch.

I was actually just about to ask about this issue in the rules. If minus points were counted as territory, then it would raise some interesting questions, especially if disputes about life and death arise. Cases like the following are pretty interesting.

In the lower right snapback, neither player wants to capture, so is it a seki? In the lower left, if white disputes the life and death status of the group, is he just declared dead? Does black have to pay a "tax" of 5 points to kill it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Status of marked stones?
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X m X O . . O m . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O . . |
$$ | W W W X X X O X X O O |
$$ | . W m W . X O X m B O |
$$ | W W W X X . X X W W X |
$$ | . X X . . X . X X X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Some more positions with potentially "alive" stones that nobody wants to capture or save.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Status of marked stones?
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . X O X X . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X W X . |
$$ | X W m B O X X X m X . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X m X X |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O O X |
$$ | O . X O . O . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . O . . |
$$ | X W m O . . O . m . . |
$$ | . X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


And here, and how many points of territory is white scored on the right? Depending on how scoring works, it's possible that neither player wants to play on the right, in which case white will end with a weird, seemingly unfinished shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Status of marked stones?
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X X W m W X |
$$ | . O . O X . X W . W X |
$$ | . . O X . . X W W W X |
$$ | O O X X X . X W . W X |
$$ | . . O X . . X W W W X |
$$ | . O . O X . X W . W X |
$$ | . . O . O X X W m W X |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


It does feel simpler to just tax 5 points for killing groups at the end, since it's consistent with the score that would result if both players just kept playing until all dead groups were physically captured. But maybe others disagree. It's probably possible to come up with other consistent rulings for how to score positions like the ones above.
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