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Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5711		 Page 4 of 4
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:54 W:41
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | 3 W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . 2 1 . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m . . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W . . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

If you accept.
Author:  illluck [ Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:55 W:41
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m X . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W . . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Seeing if white will connect - white probably won't, so I will then take the minus point and get about 10 points swing in the corner. I think that's better than me connecting and white playing at this point instead. Now there is also three spots worth about 4-6 points (the top plus point is largest), but unfortunately I don't think I'll have time to play first.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:55 W:42
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W O . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  illluck [ Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:55 W:42
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | X B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | . B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | . W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W W . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  schultz [ Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
This game has been fun to watch, and I'm looking forward to the conclusion.

But, dang, you guys are trying to make my eyes bleed... :shock: So many red circles... ;)
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:56 W:49
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B . B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | X B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | 2 B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | 1 W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W W . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

If he connects his stone I believe connecting mine back to my group is bigger than taking the final +5 point on the board.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . 2 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W B 1 B B . B . |
$$ | . . m W W . W W B B . |
$$ | W W W . . . W B B W . |
$$ | X B B W W B . W W . W |
$$ | B . B B B B . . . W p |
$$ | B B W W . B . . . . . |
$$ | W W B W . B W . W . . |
$$ | . W m W . B . W m B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B W W . |
$$ | . . . B W B . B . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  illluck [ Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Glad that you are enjoying it :)

Sorry for the red circles, too late to change the previous diagrams now, but perhaps we can flip the use of red circles for current moves?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:57 W:49
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O m O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . B X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:56 W:45
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O W O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  illluck [ Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:57 W:45
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X B X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:57 W:46
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . W O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O p |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  illluck [ Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:64 W:47
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . 2 W O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O 3 |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
I resign.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:64 W:47
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . O O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X X X . X . |
$$ | . . m O O . O O X X . |
$$ | O O O . . . O X X O . |
$$ | X X X O O X . O O . O |
$$ | X . X X X X . . . O X |
$$ | X X O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . O m X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

At any point you can play a move like :b1:, and at the end of the game it will either be left on the board or (since Batoo uses area-like scoring) I'll have to capture it, resulting in -5 points. That leaves me too far behind to win the game.

Thanks for the game illuck, it was a lot of fun :).
Author:  illluck [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Thanks for the game, but are you sure that's how it works? That seems rather strange to me...
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
I'm pretty sure: the game uses area scoring, and from looking at one of the other threads it said that the minus points do not get counted as actual territory. Araban apparently wrote a thorough review of the rules at GoDiscussions, but that's down. What's worse, Godiscussions robots.txt disallows traversal of the threads on it's forum, so the Internet Archive doesn't have a backup.

I didn't think about this situation at the beginning of the game, but it's the interpretation that would make the most sense to me.
Author:  illluck [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
I'm still not convinced that's how it works. I'm pretty sure you won the game XD
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Well, illuck definitely won, because Dusk Eagle resigned. Now we're just arguing over who wins the review.

Interesting game, guys.
Author:  lightvector [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Batoo-kovitch #4: Dusk Eagle vs illluck
Thanks to you both, this was an enjoyable game to watch.

I was actually just about to ask about this issue in the rules. If minus points were counted as territory, then it would raise some interesting questions, especially if disputes about life and death arise. Cases like the following are pretty interesting.

In the lower right snapback, neither player wants to capture, so is it a seki? In the lower left, if white disputes the life and death status of the group, is he just declared dead? Does black have to pay a "tax" of 5 points to kill it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Status of marked stones?
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X m X O . . O m . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O . . |
$$ | W W W X X X O X X O O |
$$ | . W m W . X O X m B O |
$$ | W W W X X . X X W W X |
$$ | . X X . . X . X X X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Some more positions with potentially "alive" stones that nobody wants to capture or save.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Status of marked stones?
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . X O X X . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . X W X . |
$$ | X W m B O X X X m X . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X m X X |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O O X |
$$ | O . X O . O . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . O . . |
$$ | X W m O . . O . m . . |
$$ | . X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


And here, and how many points of territory is white scored on the right? Depending on how scoring works, it's possible that neither player wants to play on the right, in which case white will end with a weird, seemingly unfinished shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Status of marked stones?
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X X W m W X |
$$ | . O . O X . X W . W X |
$$ | . . O X . . X W W W X |
$$ | O O X X X . X W . W X |
$$ | . . O X . . X W W W X |
$$ | . O . O X . X W . W X |
$$ | . . O . O X X W m W X |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


It does feel simpler to just tax 5 points for killing groups at the end, since it's consistent with the score that would result if both players just kept playing until all dead groups were physically captured. But maybe others disagree. It's probably possible to come up with other consistent rulings for how to score positions like the ones above.
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