damn... that will teach me to masquerade as Breakfast..........


Seriously well done......

Yes, this was a very interesting experiment, with a better outcome than I expected . With a few more good tournaments without me suiciding in byo-yomi I hope to get to EGF 4 dan (I recently got promoted to British 4 dan which is a bit weaker: starts at 2322 GoR and I am 2325), but that is far from breakfast's 7d and 2703 GoR. As for the reading ability eliminated, there are several facets to reading. One is the depth, how many moves you can read into the future whilst retaining the position in your head. This is indeed effectively eliminated by being able to play out moves using the Analyse Board feature (or an sgf editor). Another is the breadth, how many different moves you consider (at different levels of the tree) based on your brain's move-generating abilities. This is helped by being able to play offline, but still there will be particular moves I don't even consider so this aspect of reading skill still remains somewhat. And then there is the judgement of the resulting position, which is not helped at all by being able to play offline, unless of course you can do some deeper reading to help you.

Congratulations and thanks for the commented game

I didn't read the comments, but here are two things I thought of pointing out, just possibilities.

Firstly, I do not believe the peep you thought you should have done on the right would have been good, it's a thank-you move. Also, in the bottom left when discussing endgames, I don't think your cut for more Ko threat possibilities was good. Instead, you could turn at C3, then b2 and you can atari at B3 and make a Ko in there. When white plays the variation that prevents the Ko due to him having one extra liberty, you can finish by just playing Hane from the outside and reduce a bit.

This is just what I think, I never believe I can say these things in Go with 100% certainty

Toru

C3 was the 4th move of the game, so I'm guessing this is a typing error?

Oh sorry, c2!

Toru

@Toru:

Ah yes, nice find! That does look to be the best endgame, 2 points better than what I played (assuming white doesn't fight the very heavy ko). When I played the b7 turn I saw it wasn't sente for that ko shape due to the extra liberty, but overlooked that even if the ko doesn't work it can still give me endgame profit. That would've given breakfast a taste of his own medicine after all those shenanigans he pulled off inside my territory at the top right .

I don't think it says anything like this, and for a number of reasons. An even match against breakfast doesn't mean you are playing a robot that performs consistently at GoR strength. I've had days where my Go play would embarrass a 2k, and I've had days where I play great. This is accentuated by correspondence play (read some of Uberdude's self comments in other games of this - "Probably overplay, but I'd just come back from the pub and was feeling confident" - badly parahprased, but yeah), where you play across a number of days, including days where you just don't feel like playing Go but feel obliged to move anyway. My OGS rating goes up when I'm in the Go mood (recently had about a 25 game winning streak, and am now steadily and systematically throwing away my games one by one).

You really can't treat an OGS game like two players at the peak of their strength playing their best Go within their abilities - it's just an assumption too far.

Get them to rematch and put five thousand Euros / Pounds / Dollars on it and see if the result is the same. At the very least, the "I'm not in the mood but I'll play anyway" and "I don't really care about this game today" factors will mostly disappear.

Not that I'm taking anything away from the result, a great job Uberdude

PS I actually suspect it doesn't represent an EGF 3 dan's play, I suspect with almost unlimited thinking time like this, my experience with Uberdude leads to a guess that he could happily hold EGF 5d (whether he wants to agree with it or not )

I agree with all of your points. However, I also think that a pro has pride in his profession. Breakfast even named the game "My road to #1 OGS rank". My conjecture is that he played amateurs on OGS to promote his teaching business. Losing to an amateur in an even game, even if it is casual, presumably does not benefit business even if the game does not mean anything (I applaud him for not minding such risks). Breakfast is also not new to correspondence go; he has played on DGS. Breakfast also did not have a dozen games going at once on OGS. This might have been one of two or three. All of this makes me think that Breakfast wasn't playing moves on a whim. My experience is that pros only lose to amateurs when they are testing them.

In a rematch, I would put my money on Breakfast. Breakfast is clearly the stronger player. However, I still feel confident in the conjecture that the gap in non-reading go knowledge (or non-reading go wisdom or whatever we might call it) between the two players is a lot smaller than what most people might believe it to be. Pro-only magical insight, a theory that most of us subscribe to, might turn out to be 85% phlogiston (because I like pulling numbers out of my rear end). Uberdude and Breakfast might be Lavoisier in that context. Okay, maybe I took that analogy too far.

hum....
i am sorry about below comment Uberdude.
my personal opinion on playing stronger players.

i think breakfast has better chance of winning on two stone than losing even game.
reason why i can say that is because i have played many many strong players who are willing to give me 4 stone handy for big money which i refuse because of my pride.

3 stone i do have advantage in the beginning but somehow they find the way to win. (about 50% win lose)

i believe Uberdude can be stronger than my strength but not by much.
when i read his comments there are some that i disagree and i am sure that my point of view is better choice. my viewpoint might be wrong but i will not admit it.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I just checked the EGF winning statistics and for a 3d vs a 7d there were 376 games of which the 3d won 4, i.e. 1% of them. I'd have liked a five thousand pound bet with those odds.



This was a 3 days/move game and breakfast usually had plenty of time, I think there was only one point he went less than a day and usually 5+, whereas I got short of time quite often as I kept postponing a difficult move (it even got down to about 2 minutes to timeout and a friend sent me a reminder text message but everything was under control with a time tesuji).

I wonder what would happen if I played Ilya Shikshin on OGS. He is a little stronger than breakfast, but has a very different style of aggressive fighting. One argument is that in a peaceful game a much stronger player can simply win by 5 points and the weaker player never has a chance, whereas a fighting game is more chaotic so there is a chance for the weaker player to stage an upset. However, this theory has the problem I've just provided a counterexample. Another argument is that Ilya's style of lots of fighting really sorts the strong players from the weak and I would get massacred. How much help would the extra time be to me in dealing with all his aggression and sharp tesujis? Against breakfast he never really pulled me out of my comfort zone: I was playing the sort of game I am happy with. Ilya would likely create the sort of chaotic game of many weak groups that he revels in, and that I find more difficult. So I would expect to have less chance of beating him, but who knows, unless he registers on OGS...

Which made the victory all the more sweeter/ironic . He's now #4 and I'm #1. #2 is a Russian 2 dan (but last tournament in 2010 so maybe he is stronger now) so it seems the extra time benefits some others too. #3 is a 6 dan from Singapore. Maybe I should start giving lessons...



I was his only game for about 4 months. The game started in May 2012; he also played shapenaji who you may remember posted his game here but that one finished in a blitzy 2 months. He convincingly beat vitality, another of the top OGS players (who I'm 3-1 in head-to-head and currently playing in my toughest title match yet).

You would have been excommunicated from the Segoe go dojo for sure. For those of you who are not degenerate gamblers, this means that those betting on Uberdude only need to bet $1 to win $99. Those betting on Breakfast would need to bet $99 to win $1. If Uberdude bet 50.51 pounds on himself at those odds and won, he would gain 5,000 pounds. If I bet 5,000 pounds on Breakfast at those odds and won, I would gain a paltry 50.51 pounds. Yikes. At those odds, my money is on Uberdude as well. Of course, the bookie would probably take a 10% cut. Gambling is so evil.

For sure I played better in this game (and on OGS in general) than I do in real-life tournaments. In my real-life games I can easily find dozens of mistakes in my moves, often a second or two after my hand has left the stone. I think it's reasonable to say this game was of EGF 7d level, or do you think breakfast played a lot weaker than his ability?

As for me holding EGF 5d, if the games were played with asymmetric time limits of me on OGS and them regular ~1 hour time (rather difficult logistically!) this game suggests I could be even higher, no? Or is the question one of disentangling my improvement from more time and my improvement from being able to play out variations? It is true that my play deteriorates significantly in byo-yomi, but even if I had more time I would still need to improve my mental stamina and the other psychological aspects of go strength. There's quite a difference between spending 10 hours non-stop on a game (like a Japanese title match), and spending 10 hours in little chunks over several months on OGS.

Maybe the question is rather like asking "If I didn't make all those silly mistakes, how strong would I be?" Silly mistakes are usually factored into your rank, and OGS enables you pretty much to eliminate them and get to your latent strength. So yes, maybe my latent strength is 5d. But I expect most 5d are better at reading than me. Also what about other EGF 3 dans? Surely they would get stronger too, but perhaps less so?

uberdude very stronk. too stronk.

_________________
IN VICTORY, MALICE. IN DEFEAT, REVENGE. DON'T GET MAD, GET BAD

OT, but here is what this makes me think of:

There were discussions for a long time about the superiority of korean and chinese pros over the japanese pros. But they most often play on different time controls - and when they go head-to-head it is mostly on time controls favoring the korans and chines (since this is what they are used to, fast times.) An argument can be made that if you are stronger in faster game, you are also stronger in slower game. I wonder if this really holds....

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Actually that corner aji Toru found is even more interesting (and better for me!) than I thought at first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Common ko shape starts it off
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . 4 O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | . 3 O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | 5 2 1 X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems like white then has two choices, capture or descend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 Var 1 capture.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | 1 3 O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | X O X X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This would be 2 points in sente better than what I played in the game (I just assume white can't fight the ko as it is too heavy for him, I didn't actually count threats).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Var 1. cont
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | 1 O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | 3 O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | O O O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | X O X X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . X 4 2 . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, this is a mistake from white as black can connect and use the g2 cut to gain a liberty to make a 1-step approach ko to kill all of white's corner stones!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Var 1. white has to fight ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | 5 O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | O O O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | X O X X O O 3 4 O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . X 1 . 2 . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So white has to descend after the ko shape and (omitting the one ko capture white can make before submitting) we end up with

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 Var 2 descend.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | 4 O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | 6 O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | 2 O O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | X O X X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . 1 5 3 . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white finishes off in gote like this it's fully 4 points better than the game!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm12 Var 2 descend cont.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | 2 X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | 1 X O . O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | X O . . O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | 3 O O O . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Probably white won't finish with and leave that ko of a further 4 points behind. Seeing as I played this during the game with the r18 cut still undefended I should leave this sequence until I can afford to take gote. But what a big gote it is!

P.S. It looks like white may be able to resist with this but is a nice tesuji to get it back to a ko. Can anyone find anything better for either player?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Tesuji for if white resists.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | 3 . O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | 4 2 O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | 5 6 1 X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

P.P.S. Also I didn't count it precisely but it seems I made another yose mistake with r18 and t10 is bigger, and if so would punish breakfast's mistake of trying to get in the q19 sente yose (which I fell for) before t11.

In DGS Insei league September-November, 2010 breakfast lost two games, one of them to Shilba -- OGS #2.

Michael Redmond 9p is touring the UK at the moment and I was fortunate to have him look at this game at a study session this weekend. His comments were:

- The result on the right was good for black who got some nice territory and white's influence could be a weak group. Instead of the fancy q13 he preferred simple 2 space extension to r12, then r14 p9.
- p7 should indeed have o11 peep and then continue at o9. This is Michael's attacking style.
- m4 could be h3.
- Similarly he preferred e4 at h3, j5 e3 expected continuation and black nicely destroys white's territory.
- r2 at r4 was better and actually made it harder for white to make sabaki.
- White o6 was too fancy, o5 atari, n4 n6 was better shape to come out to the centre. The result in the game with the aji of the o8 hane was good for black.
- m6 at n8 was even better (then white m6 black p9). Black has a nice splitting attack going.
- White's p18 was probably an overplay, but necessary as behind.
- Black m17 was bad, should n15 cap, allow white to settle in gote on the top side and then o8 cut for a powerful splitting attack.
- White g14 indeed overplay. It could be possible if he strengthened the shape below in sente (but that would also strengthen black) with moves like e9 sacrifice to get f10 and g9 in sente. Even so g13 probably more reasonable afterwards.
- My b4 cut indeed a big loss of points.

I've been taking a look at some of my old OGS games with KataGo, including my epic win against breakfast. As I expected, it was a generally high quality game, KG's score was never more than +/- 4 points either way, and most mistakes from both of us were less than 1 point or 10%. Interestingly the biggest mistakes it found I don't recall noticing at the time, and Michael Redmond didn't identify them either:
- black (me) -40% or -5 points, s3 atari should instead r4 atari and allow white gote life in corner and then defend at o16. In the game my attack on the weak group he made there did give me some attacking to do in the middlegame which was likely decisive (as probably breakfast is less likely to lose in a boring yose game), but also I did lose lots of points and have to miserably connect on the 1st line there.
- not a single move, but I correctly identified white's g14 reduction as an overplay and cutting that off was the middle-game turning point of white's 2-3 point lead to my 2 point lead; white -50% or -6 points over moves 110-122 moves
- move 229, we both missed his endgame tesuji for a 55% or 3 point swing which was his last chance to reverse the game from a narrow win for me to him.
- but my 183 timesuji wasting toru's amazing corner aji only got a -5%.



Here's how KG rates Redmond's review:

- The result on the right was good for black who got some nice territory and white's influence could be a weak group. Instead of the fancy q13 he preferred simple 2 space extension to r12, then r14 p9. KG agrees right result good for me, Redmond's 2 space a little better than Dinerstein's q13, but best was r14 approach and then taking corner when black splits. B
- p7 should indeed have o11 peep and then continue at o9. This is Michael's attacking style. KG's blue is O11. A
- m4 could be h3. KG says my m4 is blue, h3 is 2nd choice and <1% behind. C
- Similarly he preferred e4 at h3, j5 e3 expected continuation and black nicely destroys white's territory. KG says h3 is 2nd choice, h4 1st and e4 3rd. All close B
- r2 at r4 was better and actually made it harder for white to make sabaki. KG: r4 blue, by a few percent. A
- KG's 2nd biggest mistake of game s3 not identified. E
- White o6 was too fancy, o5 atari, n4 n6 was better shape to come out to the centre. The result in the game with the aji of the o8 hane was good for black. KG: o6 indeed one of white's biggest mistakes and o5 correct, but after n6 was not white's correct shape, but n5 l5 n7. A-
- m6 at n8 was even better (then white m6 black p9). Black has a nice splitting attack going. KG: Indeed n8 is blue, m6 was one of black's biggest mistakes at -15% or -2 points. But would continue with m9 m11 and then p9. If p9 directly white would m10 and it's 1% worse. A-
- White's p18 was probably an overplay, but necessary as behind. KG: p18 indeed bad, but not necessary as not behind, defending honte at o8 leaves white 0.3 points ahead with the 6.5 komi says KG. black would then o16 and white e6 annoys the black thickness that isn't really (which in the game I defended naturally by using o8 attack) C
- Black m17 was bad, should n15 cap, allow white to settle in gote on the top side and then o8 cut for a powerful splitting attack. KG: spot on, n15 is blue and black does continue with o8 after white gote at top. A
- White g14 indeed overplay. It could be possible if he strengthened the shape below in sente (but that would also strengthen black) with moves like e9 sacrifice to get f10 and g9 in sente. Even so g13 probably more reasonable afterwards. KG: indeed, the sequence from o8 to here was pretty flat winrate but this was -15% -1.5 points. KG likes k10. B
- My b4 cut indeed a big loss of points. KG only -1, doesn't seem to think the ko is profitable for black. B
- Not seeing b9 endgame double blunder D.

All in all pretty impressed with the correctness of Redmond's comments, particularly as this was a review of my game, rather than his own which he would put more thought into.



Whilst KG win% and point divergences aren't a perfect measure of the quality of a game (it's easier to make bigger mistakes in more complicated positions), for calibration here is KG's graph (green % line same scale, purple points scale is dynamic) for 2 top Chinese 9ps: